Marta Andhov  0:03 

Welcome to bestek Public Procurement podcasts. We will be talking today with Willem. About COVID-19 and public procurement in emergency times. Hi, Willem, how are you doing today?

Willem Janssen  0:44 

I’m good. How are you?

Marta Andhov  0:46 

Yeah, good, good. We sort of promised our listeners in the trailer to this podcast that it will be fun and lighthearted discussions on procurement. And we started with actually quite, quite a serious topic.

Willem Janssen  1:12 

Yeah, so obviously because we’re still working from home and the Corona pandemic is still all around us. Yeah, this was the first topic that we had to touch upon. It was screaming in our faces, too; at least they said, share a few thoughts and words about this. So let’s just say that the setup is still the same as the podcast; we’re still looking at food, we’re looking at procurement, we’re looking at trying to discuss that in a light-hearted way. But, of course, we’re also mindful of the terrible stuff that’s going on all around the world. So yeah, let’s see if we can find the right balance.

Marta Andhov  1:45 

Absolutely. And of course, this is to be said that we don’t mean any type of disrespect. We, of course, acknowledge that this year, this is over the topic, but we will try to comment a little bit on what has been happening. And we definitely wanted to tackle this as our first topic because public procurement is actually at the forefront to the response of the challenge of COVID-19, right? So this is also a quite rare opportunity in which our area of law is really sort of at the forefront and is of such importance. But, I think that I would want to just start before we move anywhere further to telling to our listeners in couple words what’s happening today. So we will try to do three elements as our entree following our idea of menu and dining. We want…

WiIlem Janssen  2:32

Is it going to be Italian or Dutch?

Marta Andhov  2:34 

Ohh Italian, or the Dutch!? This a bit of a global conversation.

WiIlem Janssen  2:39

Maybe cuisine.

Marta Andhov  2:40 

Yeah, it’s a bit difficult to narrow down. But So Andrew, we will try to look at and sort the situation right, where we are and what we have heard from the European Commission, what’s been happening and try to put in a different type of distinction, this situation that we need to address. The main course, we will focus predominantly today will be to looking at the perspectives of how different members states are dealing with this, what has been done in some of them, we of course, won’t cover all of them, but we will cover some of the jurisdictions that we are acquainted with, and what to do now as the contracting authority, right, what what are some of the available solutions and what can be done? If time allows us and we hope to be restrictive to ourselves

WiIlem Janssen  3:37 

Which is just going to be difficult!

Marta Andhov  3:39 

Yeah, like always, that’s true. But we would try to finish on this sort of lighthearted topic about academic life and COVID-19 teaching in in times of COVID-19, etc. So that’s a little bit lineup for today.

WiIlem Janssen  3:53 

Yeah. So I think to add to that, this is also an interesting time to take this approach, or at least me saying that our approach is interesting might be a bit of a terrible thing to say, but I wouldn’t say the dust has settled, right? The pandemic is still going on in full flesh, but we can kind of look back on some first experiences, what’s been happening, so perhaps some of the little dust particles are starting to land where they’re supposed to land. So yeah, I’m excited to discuss this with you.

Marta Andhov  4:25 

Yeah, let’s go with it. So to start with, with our entry point, I would like to highlight the different distinctions that we can look at in context of procurement. So for sure, one distinction is between procurement of the personal protection equipment and ventilators and service needed to fight the COVID-19. So the sort of the most urgent aspects versus the other type being the regular procurements that are just affected by the circumstances of the pandemic, right. So we have delays, we are not able to deliver certain things because what’s happening within the market. That’s one distinction. And the second distinction is this sort of global international procurement cooperation again with the idea and aim to fight COVID-19 the sort of joint initiatives across the globe, versus the very national viewpoint again when it comes to more regular procurement. So I think that this is a bit important to keep in mind when talking about this thing. And then the second point, of course, is that we right now are a little bit smarter. Hopefully, some time has passed from the very first moment when all this started to happen. There’s a little bit more information. Villem, you started actually, on the Dodge podcast, with we had an episode on COVID. What did you cover there?

Willem Janssen  5:55 

Yeah, so in this episode, I think that was really when things started to get real. I discussed some of the options or the discretions that contracting authorities have within the law, within the directors, within national procurement legislation to deal with this crisis. I discussed it with Matanja Pinto, a lawyer from DVLP lawyers in Amsterdam. And basically, what we tried to do is to help out, and I think; hopefully, part of this podcast could also be something like that. Maybe to provide a bit of a reflection that can help policymakers contracting authorities in the months to come, right? What’s interesting that it all happen prior to the publication of the European Commission’s guidance document, which was published on the first of April. And or at least what I think is interesting is that the Commission is really making a point there and trying to prove to show the member states because it is a guidance document, right? And to be honest, perhaps they’re merely clarifying what room there is within the directors on two aspects. And the Commission then points out time limits that could be changed and the possibility for emergency procurement under the negotiated procedure of Article 3032. Now we’ll get back to some of those limitations, or what’s not mentioned in that document. What I think is interesting is that the Commission clearly identifies what’s going on right now. And now quote;  The number of covid 19, patients requiring medical treatment is rising daily, and in most member states is expected to increase further until the peak will be reached. Alright, so what you were saying about this first distinction that’s important about urgent procurement and regular procurement, the Commission is taking quite a clear stance is that you know, regarding medical treatment and patients and to tackle this crisis, we’re in a state of emergency.

Marta Andhov  7:59 

Yeah, so I think this is fairly clear, to be honest. For me that when it comes to this emergency, we do fully understand that, you know, the property, value for money, and all these things that normally are extremely important in the forefront of procurement rules. In this situation, they are not the prime aim up here; the speed and, you know, sort of being able to save lives is at a bottom line the most important thing. I believe that there was no much disagreement in that regard. So the rules are not the most relevant here, when it comes to this high, high importance of procurement. Up here, we just highlighting the need of record-keeping and making sure that you keep the documentation for the choices that you make. The aspect of it is that, of course, there is a certain risk that also it has been reported already, by some of the member states is that the rules are or fully put on the side in the context of any procurements in general, just sort of abusing of this of the of this right to right look into the negotiate procedure, without pure notice. That is one thing. And second thing is also the risk of fraud within those proceedings. Right. But I want to ask you actually about one aspect, in all of this, and that is;   Do you think that  commission guidelines, first of all, really were important to have? “And second of all; Does it actually bring anything new to us?

Willem Janssen  9:47

I feel like there’s an answer in that question already. But…It could be, it could be! So look, in terms of the possibilities that the Commission highlights, I don’t think there’s anything new that’s added. I think just the standpoint of the Commission identifying this as an urgent crisis for which you can use them, I think that adds value. Now, what I’m conflicted with, particularly when we talk about urgency, is;  I’ve got this academic side of me that wants consistent interpretation of the the law and I’ve got me as a concerned citizen in this. So when we look at the case law commission in Italy, the right kind of the Commission refers to that as well. In the avalanche wall case in which it was foreseeable that the skiing season would open, the wall had to be there, and obviously, the court then says; “Well, you should have done that earlier. You can’t use this. This is an urgency. So if I apply this to the current situation that we’re in, we know there is a crisis, right?  We’re not in the phase anymore of like, well, could this be a crisis? We’re so overwhelmed. So putting the dot down on when this is still a full on urgent crisis, even though the we’re seeing the effects and we’re seeing the problems? I still struggle with that a little bit in terms of consistent interpretation. So look, if we can say that like the  situation is fully urgent, because the over the uncertainty of the amount of patients that were reach intensive care, I fully comply, it’s urgent. But I don’t it’s going to be very hard to gauge when we move on, move back to regular procurement. And when this is not a pandemic, perhaps, when the World Health Organization says we’ve cleared it, but that’s going to be very uncertain in the future.

Marta Andhov  11:40 

Yeah, so there are two interesting points, just to sort of summarize and follow what you say, right, on the one hand side timewise timeframe and all of it, in which point, this is not any more the sort of urgent, unforeseeable situation and it becomes the situation in which we are actually in versus can we maybe, then argue that the scale of it, the increased scale of the need and changes, that’s the unforeseeable element. So in other words, yes, it’s a pandemic, but the consequences of that pandemic, so to speak, unfold every day, and that’s something that it’s still unforeseeable, right?

WiIlem Janssen  12:19 

For sure. Yes. Totally agree.

Marta Andhov  12:23 

Just to just to sort of ask you for a comment for one more thing in that regard, is: What you’re missing out of that guidance? What do you think that should be? Should there be anything else in that?

WiIlem Janssen  12:38 

Well, I think what was interesting is actually that there’s that the Commission left out some aspects that I think would be relevant in this case. So the directive provides for a possibility to derogate from mandatory exclusion grounds in Article 57, Section three, and it specifically refers to overriding reasons relating to the public interest, such as public health.

Marta Andhov  13:03 

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you.

Willem Janssen  12:28 

That would have been an addition that could have been interesting, or at least, the the commission document doesn’t change anything, right? Contracting authorities can still use that possibility, as long, and this is key, as long as the member states have provided for their derogation in the implementation, right, the directive refers to me. Now, what I thought was another interesting thing, at least, was a modification of contracts. So during the course of the execution of the contract, Article 72, section 1 (c) actually also provides for a lot of possibilities to if all the conditions are met, that in a case of circumstances that a diligent contracting authority could not foresee (read COVID, or an emergency) is that you would be able to alter the contract as long as it doesn’t change the nature of the contract. So there is a clear limitation and it can’t exceed 50% of the value of the original contract. Then you raise an interesting point about about selection as well.

Marta Andhov  14:13 

Yeah, so where I have a little bit of….I wouldn’t want to actually, under the circumstances, use the word criticism. Still, I think where it could provide a little bit more of help, or clarification would be to reflect somehow a little bit on the selection stage of procurements. Those are particularly I think, relevant for this procurements that are not of the immediate urgency, maybe necessarily, but there are the ones that are affected by the pandemic. And that is the case that we the solo fact that we can shorten the timeframes the time limits is not necessarily going to solve all our problems or even extend the deadline because of course, it’s all depending on which way we want to go. And we can see on the example of several member states that what contracting authority struggle these days is that a lot of institution if it’s a tax or public, insurances, courts, that sort of run the different registries, they are closed, so for the bidders to be able to get some type of certification of some type of records it’s quite impossible. So the question is, okay, what what, what space we have up there, and I think some type of clarification or assistance in regards to the interpretation of the general procurement rules would be helpful here.

Willem Janssen  15:41 

For sure. And then, just to add to that, as a final thing that I think could be relevant for, for contracting authorities dealing with it, this is an Article in the remedies directive to section three. Also, again, optional implementation. So have a look at your national legislation. Say that due to whatever reasons you violated public procurement law in these in these times, the courts can decide or as the directive obviously refers to a review body, so a bit broader, that the contract can remain in effect when it concerns overriding reasons related to the general interest. There’s that term again. And I think public health has been explicitly recognized as an aspect that falls under that. So perhaps, if all goes wrong and violations occur, the courts could still help out or those review bodies more broadly speaking. So when I would look at the EU Commission guidance document, I think it is very valuable, timely, and urgent, just like it did in the asylum crisis, good reference to negotiated procedures and time limits, but perhaps also have a look at exclusions modification of contract selection, like you mentioned, and the the possibility for those Ruby review bodies to deal with this. So, I think that would kind of sum up my initial thoughts on the on that commission guidance document. Perhaps let’s have a look at our main course.

Marta Andhov  17:14 

Yeah, I think that’s a great idea. So as the main course, where we would want to focus on is to share a little bit experiences of different member states and what has been done for them. Would you like to kick it out? And tell us a little bit more about what was the approach in Holland?

Willem Janssen  17:34 

Yeah, so it took; it was around the same time that the Commission came out with some guidance, that also PIANOo, the Dutch expertise Center for Public Procurement, also had already been flagging some issues, which I think was a very good move. What was their first approach was to focus on extending time limits. Because there is room within the law as long as that they need to be proportionate, and as the commissioner highlights, also an urgency, you could change them. But perhaps we could say that there’s always an opportunity to do that. If the market asks for it, or if that actually works in terms of effective procurement. So PIANOo plays the role. It also tried to gauge a little bit where the room was, but there was no additional legislation that was adopted.

Marta Andhov  18:19 

Okay, that’s quite…

Willem Janssen  18:21 

…quite interesting. I would say if I’d have to recap it, the focus has really been on good commissioning. So good public, being a good procurer and keeping track of what goes on in the market, trying to adjust time limits trying to, and this is a more recent thing. Some governmental agencies have attempted to speed up payments. So instead of quarterly payments, they’re now focusing on monthly payments, which, I think, in a way, it’s interesting that a crisis should force government mental agencies to do this. Perhaps smaller, medium-sized entities would have already benefited from this without a crisis, right? Nonetheless, a good move, I think. What we’ve actually seen is, so this has been a call from the central level now, the Dutch organization of the government is very much heavily decentralized. So it’s always the question, like in light of local autonomy, do these authorities actually follow up on what’s been going on? And this is where you do see that a lot of rectifications have been placed on tender net, the Dutch e-procurement platform, meaning, which would seem to indicate that at least certain things have been rectified in those in this deck, just to refer to it once more. Particularly probably regarding deadlines and time limits. So a very much a approach that’s based on perhaps changing ongoing and future procurements instead of changing the law.

Marta Andhov  20:04 

Yeah, that’s very interesting. I think we can see across several of the jurisdictions that we look at and we look at, of course, Holland, we looked at Denmark, Poland, Ireland, Portugal, and the UK. I’m having a little bit of a look around on those. It seems that many  of those jurisdictions introduce some type of law, they are not necessarily specifically law that is designed specifically for the procurement situation, but they want or in other way affect procurement. What is also quite interesting is that we can already see a certain similarities and approaches. So you mentioned prepayments in Holland. And that’s where actually a lot of focus also has been in Denmark. So the parliament has passed the law on the procurement and contract management of municipalities and regions in connection with COVID-19. And this sort of aim has been to increase the liquidity of the companies of the market and was how to support the economy and the market within this difficult time. So we have options for institutions to prepay for, for the contract. But there is also an agreement to allow municipalities and regions to advance a construction projects that were originally scheduled for 2021 already right now, to sort of to boost that tie, that economy. And besides the law, I think we also can see in different of those Member States on several of them, different procurement related agency institutions. They issue certain type of guidelines in Danish context of the Competition and Consumer Agency, which issued on the twelfth of March. The guidelines and pretty much talks about similar things as the Commission, and the ones that you mentioned already. So it’s how are we dealing with the deadlines, that we can extend the deadlines on the basis of cover, at the same time highlighting the importance of equal treatment as a principle and proportionality? And I think this is something that will be important to have in mind that whatever the changes we are introducing, they are proportional in that context.

WiIlem Janssen  22:25 

Yeah, I think that also raises but this is perhaps in discussion for a different podcast is: I always looked at the proportionality principle is just smart procurement. But maybe that’s an outlandish thing to say, if it’s not proportionate very often, it’s just…. maybe stupid as a harsh word…. but it’s just not clever to do it that way. But, you know, that’s a whole different point of discussion. I think, when we look at Ireland, you kind of see a very similar approach to what Denmark and the Netherlands has done, is they, obviously, they’ve referred to the possibilities within the law, accelerated timescales, etc., that would be possible. They actually explicitly also mentioned that like tax regime for social services, and also to see if we can spare those prompt payments. So, I do think there’s like a clear approach visible there where we actually try to help out market parties affected. And I think so;  Should contracting authorities do that? because ultimately, it’s in their own interest. If entire supply chains collapse during the crisis, you’re going to feel it when we move into a phase of regular procurement still, right? So that actually makes a lot of sense. And it also ties in with all these other measures that are being taken. So in the Netherlands, there’s an extensive emergency package in which many companies can apply for 90% of pay for employees to be continued over these months. If you would then stick to a three month payment plan that would kind of be contrary to the other measures that you’re taking. So.

Marta Andhov  23:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and then we have also Poland, which is an example of one of the member states and they actually have introduced a special legal framework to prevent and fight COVID-19 that concerns public procurement. What is interesting in this, in their approach is in Article 6 of that act, it’s pointing out that, you know, the supplies and services that are necessary to contract the cover, there might be an option up here… to.. the law specifically points out that there is an option of excluding procurement rules altogether for this emergency services and supplies here, right? So this is in this sense, I think, a little bit more open-ended approach to the Commission because the commission sort of set. Well, you actually can do quite a lot under the existing regulatory system. It’s very flexible focus on on the flexibility of it. While with this new law in Poland, they sort of specifically say: Look in context of this very urgent procurement you don’t need to apply the rules. I think what what in Poland also is one of the elements that currently is and that may be resonate with with some other member states, is that the examination of appeals by the National Board of appeal which is a specific body, that deals with procurement complaints, they suspended their operation right now currently due to, of course to cover. And that, of course, is a problematic, having in mind that the deadlines are keep running for submitting the complaints. So that’s one of the things that also we see in practice as a challenge.

Willem Janssen  25:46 

Yeah. And I think that’s also something. So when we look at extending deadlines for submitting bids, I think also to file claims, after say the the winner has been announced, I look at them as two of the same, or at least they seem to be the same discussion is if you want to run proper procedures, and you want to be respectful to market parties, you need to also extend that deadline. Because, logically speaking, everyone’s working from home. So to compile a complaint is going to be very difficult. We’ll run into practical issues, like you already mentioned. But even though lawyers always said that they were such a unique profession, or law firms is that they could never work from home, they are now working from home. So at least they got that out of the way. I wonder what was the cause for that, but they’re trying to obviously also get things up and speed up to speed. But if you can’t file the claim, you can’t. So let’s give a bit of space there as well.

Marta Andhov  26:46 

And I think that is something that needs to be, you know, also… and we will talk about digitalization a little bit later today. But you know, the whole question about will have the procurement how you did have your procurement with within your member state, how much is really truly digitalized? Right. So if you if you lack the sort of structures in….I think… that’s what also brings a lot of a lot of the negative impacts right now and consequences and challenges, right? But let’s try to wrap it up, especially when it comes to some of the other member states. We also have Portugal that also introduced introduced a specific law, like the other member states that we mentioned right now on on on procurement. And they are specifically in context of smart contracts. So up to 20,000 euros, they can be awarded without any formalities, really. So that’s one of the approaches. And then the UK, which was one of the first ones I think that…

Willem Janssen  27:44 

…one of the front runners.

Marta Andhov  27:46

Right!

Willem Janssen  27:48 

Yeah, by guidance for sure.

Marta Andhov  27:50

Yeah. So they they provided the general guidelines, again, in context of deadlines, the flexibility and so on and so forth. Anything to add to that rule?

WiIlem Janssen  28:00

No, I mean, I think also like when we discuss these, these countries that have a look at what better or delicious, as published on his blog, telus.eu. and what Albert Sanchez has been posting on his blog, howtocrackanut.com. There’s quite a bit of discussion about the Dyson contractor, if you’re really if you’re keen to look further than just this podcast, perhaps have a look at that. But I think that sums it up quite nicely. And maybe we can start having a look at some of the I’m always hesitant to coin these as best practices because they’re usually the first practices are not necessarily the best practices, I would say. But let’s, let’s see what are things that we can kind of do… as if you are a public purchase or contracting authority? What can they actually do in terms of dealing with this crisis right now, in the context of public procurement law, but perhaps also outside of it?

Marta Andhov  29:00 

Yeah, I think that’s a really good idea. So one of the things that we already addressed is a need to distinguish between what is your urgent procurement? And what is your regular one, right? What’s the one that sort of suffers as it comes as a consequence of the pandemic? So that’s for sure the first important element because I think that we will see that there won’t be an equal amount of leniency of looking at what you’ve been doing as a contracting authority on both of those, would you agree, or would you disagree on that?

Willem Janssen  29:34 

Well, I think that’s going to be, the biggest challenge for the months to come, for sure to see where does this sliding scale of urgency is turning into regular? The time will tell?

Marta Andhov  29:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Willem Janssen  29:49

So and then I think the next step, I think, as we mentioned it already a couple of times, are timelines that continuously keep evaluating those for current procedures, but also for future procedures… tumbling over my words… but also courts, right? So the thing that we mentioned, quarter over, overwhelmed with how to deal with cases when things are starting to pick up again, but like, perhaps also extend those and look up payment schemes, like we mentioned, like what some Dutch governmental agencies are doing what’s happening in Denmark like you mentioned?

Marta Andhov  30:26 

Yeah, I think that just to add to that, I think that this one is also a little bit difficult because as preparation for our podcast, I listened and took part, I think in you know, ten webinars over the last couple of weeks.

Willem Janssen  30:40 

I feel sorry for you… Haha

Marta Andhov  30:42

No, no, it was super interesting, you know, some, some people do really interesting, amazing things. And I think everyone tries their best. But one of the arguments is saying is, you know, it’s also about how liquid the contracting authority is, and can they actually, as a consequence of this, really do those things. And I think that some of the member states will be in a little bit more privileged situation than others. So that is also something that, of course, we need to acknowledge,

Willem Janssen  31:10 

Of course, you’re totally right. That’s a good good side note. And then finally, I think, even though there’s probably a lot more to be said is that is to keep records, right, make sure that you keep track of at what point you made what decision for what reason, and what the circumstances were in the market. And then based on that, to be able to file that later on, and to be able to explain yourself, should any cases arise, even though? I doubt many will. But let’s see. Let’s see what happens.

Marta Andhov  31:38 

Definitely, definitely, I think there was actually a lot to talk about, particularly about the interpretation of the law, to this sort of regular procurements that are affected by what’s happening right now. So I think we’ll ended we might consider actually doing a Volume Two; who knows? Maybe there was a space to to to consider talking about the subjects a little bit more. But okay, we’ve been quite serious. I can, I can sense that because, of course, the topic is quite serious. Let’s, let’stir it.

WiIlem Janssen  32:09

We just turned out to be serious people, that’s also possible. We can do this in a fun way, but miserably bad ways would be too harsh.

Marta Andhov  32:18 

Yeah, and let’s try to sort of finish it up today with a good dessert. And that is to I don’t know if that’s to complain, or to joke or to have a little bit, look at, well, academic life in the time of COVID-19. So a little bit of how our life change, what lessons maybe they are to learn what has been surprising in context of being a researcher and an educator  in this bizarre times, so yeah, I will let you let you start what you would like to start with now you can bare your soul about all these things that you are keeping in.

WiIlem Janssen  32:55 

Bear in mind that my wife’s in the living room right now. So I can’t actually say everything I would like to say. It’s been quite good. Given the circumstances, I think there’s people that are in far worse situations than I am at the moment, even though I do struggle, as well as to be quite honest. In particularly as an academic that loves to push things, get things off the ground published, do all these different types of things. I’m confronted with my own personality at the moment.

Marta Andhov  33:23 

Yeah, it’s a little bit of running around in circles, right? And you just sort of the there is an energy, but it’s a weird way to kind of find the way to spend it.

Willem Janssen  33:33 

Yeah, for sure, and also to find the motivation on certain days, I do have… and on others, I don’t. And one thing that I’m taking away from this is, is researches I’ve put that really on the low burner here, like it’s not going to material and not a lot is going to materialize; I saw some tweets coming by on Twitter from like people saying, oh, there’s going to be the best, most fruitful time ever. I doubt that’s going to happen for me. And actually acknowledging that as brought a semi sense of peace in my mind.

Marta Andhov  34:03 

But you know, I really much appreciate you being very honest about it, because we’re i think is actually a little bit unhealthy, is that this push for productivity currently, that we very much can see online is like, Oh, it’s this great time, you have finally time to do your research. And, you know, don’t have any meetings and all these different things. It’s…and I think that it makes a lot of people (and I spoke with a lot of fellow academics) feel really bad and feel really like they you know, sort of lazy and not accomplishing what they are supposed to. But it’s very bizarre time to move forward through that to something that that we already talked privately couple times about. And I think it’s a good, good form to have a bit of a laugh. It’s, you know, the sort of digitalization of education in our line of work. And the first thing that comes to my mind that I think it’s, you know, one of these funny moments is, you know, I’m an intern on the internet that circulates right now, this moment about who brought digitalization to your organization, CEO, CFO or COVID-19?

Willem Janssen  35:13 

COVID, for sure.

Marta Andhov  35:14 

Yeah. You know, and I think this is really funny because I think different universities have been in different stages of this, but I think that we pretty much the majority of us did, pretty much digitalization program for a year or two within a matter of two weeks.

Willem Janssen  35:27 

Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, I have to give a big shout-out to Utrecht University in this regard when we have a program that’s been running for a couple of years called Educate IT. Actually, for internationals, there’s also a lot of information; there are lots of knowledge clips about how you could actually tackle this, so perhaps have a look. But in all honesty, it was mostly in practice. So the support was there. And there were great movements, and we were doing interesting things. But this just causes an absolute need to do it, right? So everyone had to be on board. And I was confronted with colleagues that still used Nakia 3310 on prepaid plans; now try getting those to actually do an online lecture.

Marta Andhov  36:09 

Oh, yeah, that’s a challenge in itself, right. We’ve got certain teachers that sort of they refuse to do PowerPoints and things like that; they just sort of share what they know. Yeah, you know, many years of practice. Yeah, it’s a totally different thing.

Willem Janssen  36:22

It’s off balance, I suppose. Because you also want to be kind to those professors, because I think we need to be kind to ourselves, also to others. But on the other hand, we’re also still trying to keep up a certain level of academic, you know, that students don’t need to finish an academic degree, right?

Marta Andhov  36:38 

Oh, yeah.

Willem Janssen  36:39 

And it’s a different, difficult balance.

Marta Andhov  36:40 

And let’s not also, you know, sort of underestimate the impact of all of this for students, and you know, the students who really want to finish with good grades, and so on. And the thing is that even if you digitally actually managed to get, you know, the classes online, and so, there are some interesting challenges that, that we don’t really see that much, or we are much more acquainted with. So we know the way around them in a regular classroom. So one of the things that we also discuss among us as a group of teachers, academics, and also I actually spoke about it with some of my students is this notion of you lecturing to the black screen. So you know, you having students at home, and from all different reasons, they don’t want to use the cameras. So you ultimately fear a little bit like an anchor and just talk to an empty, empty screen. And then, of course, you may ask; Do you guys have any questions?… or anyone would want to comment, and nothing happens. Did you come across that? Did you, anyhow, address that as a challenge within your work?

Willem Janssen  37:42 

Yeah. So for sure, that’s, it’s always a challenge, because you can’t see that one students that slacking off, or that just has this massive question mark hanging over his head, which you do have when you have a face to face class? And you can kind of work with that, right? Yeah. And particularly with so we’re using a lot of Microsoft Teams as a limitation of how many students you can see. And then again, on top of that, you’re faced with students that, for whatever reason, sometimes justified sometimes perhaps not so justified, don’t use the cameras; I find that those tools that are available to us are quite useful. I mean, you’re never going to get to a classroom situation, I find. But maybe that’s just my current observation, tools like Kahoot, presenters will all these type of voting tools worked quite well, addressing people directly having them speak in the first 10 seconds about how you go on growing, what did you notice about this week’s classes to actually get them over that hurdle because let’s not forget, it is quite scary to talk into this online space for lecturers, but also for students who are often in far from optimal situations….. and student houses, bad internet connection.

Marta Andhov  38:51 

Yeah, yeah and you know, I think that I sort of struggle, and I think a lot of us struggle with this presumption that all if you don’t see them, and they have muted screen that they probably at the same time, you know, play video games, or do cook or do something else, and just sort of in the background, which for whatever reason, maybe you just somehow, you know, imagine the worst-case scenarios in your head. But then we had a kind of good session with some students, with a student organization at our faculty, and they shared, you know, a really great thing is saying, you know, a lot of them live, let’s say, with the spouses and with the little children at the same time. So first of all, they cannot really have the voice on, and they need to be on headphones because you don’t want to, you know, wake up the kid that sleeps next door, or there are spouses around. And so on…. It’s a question also of privacy and all these different elements that students actually raised that I need to say that that sort of calmed me down in a way… that they also very much interested in and it’s not sort of one side effort. But I think in that sense, I need to say that I’m a little bit more maybe optimistic, more optimistic than you. I think that it’s a hurdle. It’s acquiring a whole different set of skills. But I think if we do that for long enough, which I hope we are not forced to by this situation, but I think that we will just learn how to make really the best of it. Exactly. So all these different tools that you mentioned and clutter for…

Willem Janssen  40:13 

…for sure. I think we’re actually just as optimistic, I think Yeah, on the same level I’d like to call it or at least what I tried to do is to be realistic and just to think, Okay, I’m going to do the best I can in this scenario. I’m going to of course, try to kick ass. But very often that doesn’t actually work. But if it does, that’s great. And I find this is also a big shout-out to to my students is they’ve been excellent, right? They’ve really been understanding; they’ve kind of understood the circumstances that we’re currently under. And that it’s, it’s a unique thing, you think so not just be kind to yourself, but also be kind to students, because they’re actually also trying to make it work.

Marta Andhov  40:49

It goes all to this empathy thing, in this in this situation we all need to be a little bit more empathic, and I think we’re going to end up on the other side of it, and until we do, we can just sort of joke around about it a little bit and power through it so to speak.

Willem Janssen  41:05

To close it off…let’s see and this is… I think what you’re hinting at let’s see if afterwards we can evaluate and see if we can find a proper balance between blended learning ’cause we realized that a lot of things that I do face to face perhaps they could have also done by Skype. Students shouldn’t have traveled all the way to get to talk to get to my office. Maybe I could have just invite him for an online meeting, so that’s nice.

Marta Andhov 41:31

Well, absolutely not to mention something that I think we both quite passionate about is this whole impact of all of this and that’s for whole different podcast episode. Like the impact of all of this on sustainability and the environment and etc. etc. But that’s for for at least next time or in two or three episodes. But yeah i think we’ll wrap it up today. It still went a little bit over the time plan that we usually have intended, but I think it was directed yeah, and it’s also extremely sort of pungent topic that we tackled right today so so so that would be the excuse for us.

Willem Janssen  42:06

For sure there will be to issues so if anyone has it and if any of our listeners…with the small group of people other than our respective partners…like we said last time… If  you have comments or if you have ideas about this podcast or if you would like to have us addressing certain things just s send us an email or get in touch. Yeah for sure so do you wanna do our first closing… do you know what to say or not?

Marta Andhov 42:34

I think I will let you do that as I think I already stressed enough about opening for the first time. Sound like you close today.

Willem Janssen  42:42

This was Bestek, a public procurement podcast.

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