Willem Janssen  0:00 

Welcome to Bestek, the public procurement podcast. Today I’m chatting with dr. Marta Andhov about some very exciting news.

Marta Andhov  0:13 

Are you excited?

Willem Janssen  0:15 

I’m actually yeah…. I’m actually very excited about the announcement that we have for everyone today.

Marta Andhov  0:23 

I say I’m a little bit scared at the same time. It’s a… Yeah….let’s hope that this is a good decision.

Willem Janssen  0:32 

I suppose being academics at home, that there’s not really a lot of options for work at the moment. So perhaps this, this whole endeavour that we’re about to embark on, is not bad timing, given the whole Corona crisis that’s happening in the background, but maybe you could like stop the tension and just share with the world. For those who are interested in and if anyone’s listening. What we’re planning on doing over the next couple of months, and perhaps years,

Marta Andhov  1:00 

Yeah, so you mean the three people that actually will tune in and find this interesting.

Willem Janssen  1:05 

Let’s just say maybe my wife or maybe your partner will tune in? Well, we have no idea. But like, yeah, let’s just see where this takes us.

Marta Andhov  1:13 

Yeah, so um, yes. Just get the suspense over; we decided that we will try to work on our podcast together and build on the great, great success of the Dutch version that will have more off…

Willem Janssen  1:29 

… you are sounding a bit sarcastic when you say this, even though particularly because you’ve never been able to listen to any of my episodes because they’ve all been in Dutch. I mean, yeah, so the thing is, is maybe we can provide a bit of background to how this all came about. Shortly said last year, in January, I thought, let’s start a podcast on public procurement in the Dutch context, about law, about practice, and let’s discuss research. Let’s get that out there. That was actually a lot of fun. So I’ve really enjoyed recording those episodes with authors in the field of research and to get that across to to a broader audience, but also to discuss the research itself. And, but there was one thing that I always noticed is, there was like, a great limitation to that is that was the fact that it was in Dutch. And that kind of limited things, perhaps international perspectives. So how is this been go… how does public procurement land in the other member states? But also to reach a broader audience! In the rest of Europe? So So that was something that I struggled with, and then all of a sudden, you sent me an email, I think, two months ago, so before this whole crisis happened, so perhaps we had a bit of a visionary thought there. And yeah, you kind of reached out to me. And that was how it all started, I think.

Marta Andhov  2:52 

I think…I think that the idea specifically, of doing the podcast came about the way that you describe it; I think that we sort of for about a year right now, if I remember correctly, have been thinking about working on something together, and we tend to have a good laugh about procurement, whenever we talk about it.

Willem Janssen  3:01 

At least we think we’re funny,

Marta Andhov  3:14 

…or at least we think that we are funny.

Willem Janssen  3:17 

Yeah,…

Marta Andhov  3:18 

….exactly. So yeah, so we just figured out, let’s try to give it a go. And we also have some similar interests in context of research. And the topics that potentially can be relevant. And yeah, so this sort of…. we figured out that this can be actually kind of a cool option, to have this type of conversations that we normally would have individually, or with a group of colleagues and friends, you know, sort of after conference dinners, or different events with a glass of wine, and you have a bit of a chat, and it’s sort of little less censored. And by censored, I mean, you may be a little bit blunt with some of your opinions, and have a bit of fun with it. And I think this is sort of where we came around this idea of trying to do a podcast, but also doing it in a little bit different way. We for sure, will do some sort of interviews with other people the same way that you did it before. But I think it’s also about having a little bit different scope of just the two of us chatting about some of the topics….of mixture of a couple of different things, right?

WiIlem Janssen  4:25 

Yeah, totally. And this is why I’m also very excited about this whole…this plan that we came up with. So traditionally, for the outside world, so people that aren’t academics, they might not have a full grasp of this. Academic conferences are very useful to discuss research to present your own research to get feedback. But there are also other factors that are placed is perhaps hierarchy that plays a role. So say say Ph.D. candidate might not feel fully free to say what they feel like or even though their opinion might have value, but they’re there. They would struggle to say that against a full professor that it’s been around for 50 years. Fifty years would actually be a long time, but that’s a whole different story. But also, like you say, it’s unfiltered. It doesn’t mean that it has to be silly or stupid, but it’s really about feeling free enough and to trust each other, that you can actually have this free conversation, this free exchange of thoughts. And, of course, the glass of wine helps. Now, I don’t know if we’ll be having a glass of wine during these episodes.

Marta Andhov  5:30 

Maybe if it’s sort of after midday. We are recording today before midday; maybe I am, but yeah, that’s the idea, right?

Willem Janssen  5:37 

That’s totally… that’s actually a good idea. And people listening won’t actually know. But let’s just assume that we’re not having a glass of wine during these podcast episodes. But that’s why I think it’s it’s so exciting because of those chats that we’ve had about public procurement, about the way it functions. Does it worked, doesn’t it work? I think that’s those are the things that I actually remember and that are very useful for my research. And that I hope are also useful for practitioners or for judges or for advocates for public procurement, in the field. And that’s why I think it’s interesting to perhaps chat with you for the next couple of months and talk about these things that we would normally do in a more of a conference setting. Now before we start talking about this, the structure that we had in mind, maybe we could just introduce ourselves a little bit more to the audience, and I’ll give you the floor first, Marta.

Marta Andhov  6:33 

Oh, sure. Sure. Thanks. So my name is Marta Andhov; I’m an Associate Professor in procurement law at the University of Copenhagen. At the faculty law, we are structured in centres, and I am with Centre for Private Governance (CEPRI). So the centre in itself looks at different aspects of private governance and one of the sort of pillars of the centre is looking at private actors as implementers and that’s where procurement law fits in very nicely. So in other words, you look at some of this public interest or public functions that are outsourced to private actors, and what are all different sort of consequences of this equation. I’ve been in Denmark for ten years right now with breaks for all different research states in different places. But yeah, I’m based in and I did my Ph.D. here. I would say my main areas of focus over the years have been complex contracts and mixed contracts. I started with public private partnerships research. Then I moved to framework agreements that are extensively used in Denmark and in Scandinavian context, and the things that around the time that we’ve met, and what we can, I guess, also bond a little bit over has been a sustainable public procurement for the last years.  I work quite closely with several of the different research institutions around Europe and the US. Last year, I just came back from New York for half a year I was there with Pace University. For quite some time Italy has been, you know, one of the very close collaborators over the last years. So yes, so I hope that we can bring all these interesting people at some point, of course, to our conversations and talk about this different research issues, and also the current developments as we go. So I think that’s pretty much it on my side.

Willem Janssen  8:43 

I feel like this is my cue. Um, so I’m an assistant professor, working at Utrecht University since 2012. I work at the Utrecht Centre for Public Procurement, which is an interdisciplinary Centre in which, basically, legal scholars and scholars from public purchasing, business Administration and economics kind of come together, because we think that ultimately we can find better answers for society, particularly in the in the public procurement context, if we at least are humble enough to accept that our own discipline can’t offer the only solution or perhaps, that we need to team up together. So  the centre has been around since 2013. In terms of my own research, I’ve always been fascinated with the role of EU public procurement law or Dutch public procurement law and how it functions and if it constructs ….or how should I say it? If it is actually hindering the best value for money or if it is enabling all those types of perhaps public policy goals to be included? Like you mentioned sustainability or other aspects. My particular research focus has been on societal irresponsible, insourcing, and outsourcing. So like you said, researchers tend to like go with the flow, there’s like a river of research and then you start with something, you pick up other things. So, in my Ph.D., I researched mostly insourcing, so public cooperation in house, all those exemptions that we have in our directives. But along the way, I kind of merged more towards like, secondary or horizontal objectives, like sustainability. And that’s like you said, that’s where we kind of came together. In terms of my research, and this is also something that I hope to do in the podcast, which I haven’t done in the Dutch episodes is to involve practitioners, governmental agencies, as much as I love talking to academics, sometimes it’s also nice to get a different perspective on the matter. And I think that’s something that you’ve also done in your research.

Marta Andhov  10:55 

I think that I would just add to that, because that I think, should be great, you know, ambition, also for the podcast. And for us, I think would you bring in which is phenomenal, is also, you know, a bit of experience with this most multidisciplinary research. And I think, as you correctly pointed out, we need to also bring some other people, we tend to be a very locked down within the legal profession, quite often, and think that we have the answers,

WiIlem Janssen  11:23 

…but we do, we are very important haha…

Dr. Marta Andhov  11:25 

…we try to, but then when you actually start to talk to practitioners, right, we being cursed quite a bit. For for the harshness, sometimes of the rules, and so on, so forth. So I think this is also great. And I also think, what I think we both been doing, which is worth highlighting, is that we talk, we talk to the buyers, we talk to the lawyers, we talk to the people that actually do that in practice, and we discuss it several times that we aim to do research and work that somehow can be helpful, or somehow can answer some of those questions and make them day to day life, you as a practitioner don’t have just time to actually dig in and find the answers because they are much more elaborated, or they are somewhere within the legal theories. And you kind of have three hours to write something, some sort of memo as a lawyer, or something of that kind. So hopefully, we can do that. That is not the type of research, and we won’t be discussing the type of research that just you know, we sort of sit in our ivory towers, do something and put into our desk…

Willem Janssen  12:31 

….you know that is very comfortable. I like sometimes sitting in my ivory tower because I think the downside to taking in too many perspectives is also that you sometimes feel like you can’t come to a conclusion. But then again, I think that whole struggle and the openness that I also appreciate in our conversations, it’s, it’s willing to be vulnerable, and accepting that I think, the that it’s okay to feel stupid, right. So I read an article a while ago, basically, where people said, I think it was a professor from Michigan, actually, but I’d have to check it. Basically he said, being part of academia is the continuous art of feeling stupid. So you continuously feel stupid, you gain all these perspectives. And at a certain point, you think: Okay, this is worth everyone’s while to publish or to get out there. I think this podcast can be a great catalyst to get those perspectives in the process of doing research. And then perhaps we might actually also other than fun conversations, we might get something out of it in terms of research.

Marta Andhov  13:31 

Sure. And you know, and there’s something else to be said that it is a bit scary. That’s sort of why we started this conversation today because we are not yet at the sort of, you know, end of our career in that sense. We’re not yet full professors, and….

Willem Janssen  13:47 

….we’d like to retire at some point, actually….

Marta Andhov  13:50 

But we’re not there yet, which automatically, also, it’s a bit scary to open yourself up to open criticism, and so on, so forth for the things that we’ll be discussing. But I think that I see a huge value in what you pointed out in this sort of vulnerability of saying, we’re just trying, you know, to help out, and we tried to find some good answers, and we tried to do our best.

Willem Janssen  14:11 

So, I think what we’re saying is, please be kind to us.

Marta Andhov  14:17 

Yeah, yeah. But then, how about you guys a little bit more about two things. I think that it will be appropriate for you to introduce this a little bit more to; Why the name of the podcast that we both on right now? And what it is what it is?

Willem Janssen  14:35 

So we’re so like I said, this started as a Dutch podcast, and now I’m super happy to have you on board as a podcast co-host. But we kind of thought it would be fun to keep the Bestek name. So it is Bestek, the public procurement podcast, and basically, Bestek is a Dutch word that has a double meaning, and it might also explain why some people think that we’ve opened up a restaurant because of the cutlery that’s on the logo. Now, Bestek means cutlery in Dutch, but it has a double meaning it also refers to the demands and wishes of a contracting authority, which they write down in the public procurement documents. So the bestek as we refer to it, so we’re going to stick to Bestek because it’s relevant for I think, all contracting authorities across Europe, even though they might not refer to the name. But I think one of the things that I think is very important before we actually start this whole endeavour, this is my, this is me putting my foot down here. Is that you managed to pronounce Bestek.

Marta Andhov  15:47 

Correctly.

Willem Janssen  15:47 

Yeah, correctly. Yeah, sure.

Marta Andhov  15:50 

Yeah, Bestek!

Willem Janssen  15:53 

Okay, go one small.

Marta Andhov  15:54 

Bestek!?

Willem Janssen  15:56 

I thought this was going to be way harder.

Marta Andhov  15:59 

I was practising.

Willem Janssen  16:01 

Ahh, so you have been listening to my previous episodes, but only the first three seconds.

Marta Andhov  16:08 

But I think that our you know, we, you need to start with a great ambition, right? So I think that part about it is also that aim, you know, for Bestek to be for procurement, what Google is for search engines, right? At some point, the Bestek will be this verb that we all use when we want to find out something on procurement, right? You will Bestek it.

Willem Janssen  16:29 

This is excellent. This is opening so many horizons for for a very simple Dutch word. I think the Danish word is also bestik, right?

Marta Andhov  16:38 

Yeah, yes. Yeah. That’s the case. Yeah. So I also checked it up. That that can be fun, I think in a broader sense.

WiIlem Janssen  16:49 

So let’s Bestek it. Yeah, I think also, but I think what’s even better is because people think we open up a restaurant, we might as well also take this opportunity to sometimes play with that a little bit. So we could have some appetisers. We could have some mains; we could have some desserts. You know, let’s try to mix it up a bit in the structure of the of the podcast. Because I think that also very much suits… I feel like I’m going full circle now…. it kind of suits the idea that we had that we’re talking about conversations after conferences in a very informal way. We’re having some food, and we’re having some wine. So let’s play with that. I think what’s my question would then be if in the ideal setting, if we’re recording a podcast, what type of food would you have? And what wine would go with it?

Marta Andhov  17:43 

Well, that’s a good question. I do think I do think that we sit around with this idea of wining and dining and talking procurement, which I think is great. And we sort of experience ourselves. That’s where the really cool conversations are happening. I for whatever reason, and that’s mainly because, you know, over the years, we actually met several times, also in Italy, where the University of Torino host us and I need to say the University of Torino, and when they host us they host as well. So for me, this sort of this idea of, you know, a really good Italian food with brilliant Italian wine, it’s really something or maybe it’s also this idea that, you know, Italian culture also has this, welcomeness…and sort of dining together a lot of people and you don’t sort of raise your hand, but people will talk over each other. And that’s in my mind. Also, when I kind of remember the best conversations about procurement, that will be the case, when people almost, you know, in a jokingly very friendly way, so do not argue, but sort of talk over each other, and it’s super informal. The sort of hierarchy that you mentioned earlier on is somewhere lost. It’s just people who all interested in the topic. And you just share your experiences, and you learn you hugely learn from the judges, from the lawyers, from the professors from the practitioners, that does not have any legal background, but they have been doing this for 20 years. And they can tell you, but you know, you think that this rule is great, but in practice, it just really doesn’t work. I think that…. this sort of as we are following out and rounding it back to the concept of this podcast, and us having this sort of meal with our listeners, and then the glass of wine of chatting, and hopefully continuing this chat in comments and some form of the written form later on. It would be phenomenal. So yeah,….

WiIlem Janssen  19:38 

I was actually hoping you would say I’m going to go for Dutch cuisine, potatoes. I’d like a beer instead of a wine. But um, I suppose you would wonder, like where the Dutch stinginess comes in and who’s gonna pay the bill, but let’s not go there.

Marta Andhov  19:54 

Yeah, yeah, totally.

WiIlem Janssen  19:55 

I would add that I’m totally down with this. I think… as long as …we can… I think Italy should be the starting point for food and wine. Let’s also sometimes maybe add a bit of spice. I’m a sucker for Thai food, good pad Thai or tomyam soup, or ramens been my latest craze, Japanese ramen. So as long as we can add those in every now and then, I think we’ve got a nice combination also between perhaps different perspectives, different food cultures?

Marta Andhov  20:26 

Well, absolutely. And you know, another thing that we sort of share our love to is this idea of new world and old world when it comes to wine. Right, we have both spot for Australia. So you know, I think that when we travel with our topics, we also travel with our food palettes and with other wine palettes, so I’m totally up for it.

WiIlem Janssen  20:49 

There is a galore of methaphors in this first episode, right? So we’ve got a bit of food, we’ve got a cutlery in the logo. And I’m also looking at the at the time, I think we should should round up this trailer. Let’s just say, I’m super excited to start this series with you. I think…If we can manage to have informal chats like we have at the conferences, with a bit of wine and dinner, I think that would be at least something that I would find interesting.

Marta Andhov  21:16 

I think that would be great. And I think that our listeners if you think that we spill all over and what actually the concept is…to sum it up our ambition would be in this in single episodes to have one topic that will be of an analysis and a discussion and that’s our main course, right? That’s what we will focus on. And then we need to have some dessert, or we need to have some appetiser depending what the subject matter of the main course is. And we might talk about some things connected with our lives as academics, PhDs, educating students and challenges of that or we can talk about some current developments in a little bit more light, hydrate way. So so you’ll get that from us, hopefully in the upcoming months if you do.

Willem Janssen  22:05 

I have absolutely nothing to add to that other than… just to finish off with the classic finish. This was Bestek, the public procurement podcast

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