Marta Andhov 0:00

Welcome to Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast. Today we’re talking about contract management tools in transitioning to an associate professorship role.

About Bestek 0:15

Welcome to Bestek, the public procurement podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Willem Janssen and Dr. Marta Andhov discuss public procurement law issues, the love of food, and academic life. In each episode, Willem, Marta and their guests search for answers to intriguing public procurement questions. This is Bestek. Let’s dish up public procurement law.

Marta Andhov 0:39

Hello, hello, good listeners. We are back today is quite special. And I’m going to tell you all about it. But before we jump into the episode itself, we wanted to take this opportunity with Willem to thank you for your support so far, ask you if you are not subscribed to our Apple, Spotify and all the other forums where you can listen to us, please do please. Like the episodes, share them, show us some love. We always look forward to hearing back from you. And today, for our main course, we will be talking about contract management tools. So, a bit of tech today. And in our dessert section, we will be sharing some reflections that we have on transitioning to the role of associate professorship. But today is also special from couple of different reasons. First of all, we are recording for the very first time in person Willem is in Copenhagen.

Willem Janssen 1:42

Yeah, I’m here, finally, took only three years to get here.

Marta Andhov 1:46

Absolutely. And another part of why today is special is because we are also launching a new part of the Bestek, part that we will continue in the upcoming months and hopefully years.

Willem Janssen 1:58

I feel like we need drums, do we have drums?

Marta Andhov 1:59

I don’t know. Do we have drums? I don’t know how that will show on the recording. But yeah, the new part is that we will be inviting new guests to our podcast. And today we have our very first one. So, a warm welcome to Associate Professor Alexandra Andhov.

Alexandra Andhov 2:20

Hello.

Willem Janssen 2:23

A slow entry, but we’ll get going very soon. It’s such a pleasure to have you here, Alex. For those of you that don’t know Alexandra’s work, she focuses on questions of corporate law, corporate governance, capital markets, more technology from an interdisciplinary and comparative perspective. You work here at the Faculty of Law, at the University of Copenhagen, and even cooler than all of that long sentence with all these very important words, is that you’ve recently started to podcast yourself as well. You started the Copenhagen Legal Tech Lab Podcast, and you’ve already got five episodes up. I feel like she’s coming for us.

Marta Andhov 3:02

Yeah, I think she got slightly inspired. Let’s take a credit for that.

Willem Janssen 3:05

Exactly. How has it been to record those first episodes?

Alexandra Andhov 3:08

So, first of all, thank you for having me. It’s pleasure. And you know, I feel very honored to be your first live guest on the podcast. That’s a big milestone for you, I assume.

Willem Janssen 3:22

That’s also that the pressure is on. But yeah, keep going.

Alexandra Andhov 3:25

Um, no. So, I think that, yeah, you know, when we kind of thought, in our Copenhagen Legal Tech Lab, group and team whether to start a new podcast, we were a little bit discussing whether the world needs another legal or law and tech podcast, because, you know, there are a couple of them. And then yeah, we kind of came to the conclusion that there are all these podcasts that take you know, two hours and two and a half hours and so on. And we want to do really small bites. So, a little bit different than then many other legal tech podcasts.

Willem Janssen 4:05

I feel like that’s an implicit nudge for us to do shorter episodes as well, but we will do our best. It’s fantastic that you’re launching it. So please, if you’re interested in this topic, as well, on top of procurement, of course, have a listen to their first episodes. And I’m sure there’s lots more to come. That introduction that I just gave didn’t have the word procurement in it, right. So just sculpt the landscape a little bit. Where does public procurement sit? If it sits somewhere at all in your research?

Marta Andhov 4:39

So, if we’re going with our wining and dining comparison, or metaphor, is that your entry, your side dish your dessert? Or is that something that you never order from the menu?

Alexandra Andhov 4:54

To be brutally honest? It’s it would be the dish that it’s on our next table, you know, next person sitting next table menu. And sometimes I get invited to sit by.

Willem Janssen 5:13

To eat someone else’s food.

Alexandra Andhov 5:15

Not necessarily, maybe more be the company rather than in the food. You know, but as a as a field of law, of course, it’s, you know, it’s irrelevant in my research as such. It does not take really direct place, but because you know, I know so many public procurement lawyers at this point in my life, and you are such a, such a loving and great group of people, I very much always enjoy to be coming and joining whatever kind of public procurement talks are out there. So, do I know a little bit about public procurement? Yes. Do I want to write about public procurement? Well, let’s see.

Marta Andhov 6:04

Well, you actually wrote though, a little bit.

Alexandra Andhov 6:06

True, actually I did, yes.

Marta Andhov 6:08

Yes, you have an article with public procurement in the title.

Alexandra Andhov 6:10

Yes, couple years back. 

Willem Janssen 6:13

I think this is, in the end, everyone moves over to the dark side. And I also feel like sometimes maybe, you know, you sit in the restaurant, and you look at what someone else has ordered. And you’re like: Damn, I should have ordered that myself. So maybe that’s procurement for you.

Alexandra Andhov 6:27

Exactly. And that’s the reason why I had this metaphor for you. Because to showcase also to your listeners that, you know, it can be very appealing.

Willem Janssen 6:39

Okay, but before we go too much into giving each other compliments back and forth, it’s, again, it’s a pleasure to have you and today for our main we’ll be talking about contract management tools. And of course, there’s a reason why we invited you, because at the core of your research is tech, but also contracts. Right? And from a public procurement law perspective, that’s ultimately where we end up, we end up with a contract. And what we’ll be doing for our main is really scoping into. So, we’d love to talk a little bit about digital technologies, and why everyone should be taking account of it in the public procurement sphere. But then really pinpoint contract management, why is it important? What do we, what should we know about it? And what are the possible avenues in which we can solve some of the pains that we’re experiencing in the public sector when it comes to public procurement? So, what Marta and I will obviously do is we’ll turn everything into a bit of a legal problem, or we will try to do that not that that’s our role in life, right to make.

Marta Andhov 7:41

Or just sort of showcase where potentially there can be an answer from those tech solutions, or what those tech solutions in themselves can pose as a sort of red flag. Because definitely, we can see and we talked about it often with Willem, the management stage of procurement, if we had to predict the next years, is really where the legal developments also will be, is really in that phase of procurement, particularly also, we often talk about the sustainable consideration and the whole point of you front load it in the procedures, but do you really follow on them in the management stage, and if you don’t, then that’s obviously quite problematic, and so on, so forth. But then, it requires a lot of resources and a lot requires a lot of time to really follow up on them. So, can tech help us or tech may introduce more challenges? So, this is where we will sort of try to jump in and try to showcase what Alex is doing. How that can be relevant, helpful and interesting to our public procurement audience.

Alexandra Andhov 8:45

Yeah. Okay. So maybe, for your listeners to give a little bit of the of the background. So yeah, so my background is, as you mentioned, Willem, corporate law and corporate governance and financial markets. And over the past, I would say, four or five, six years, more and more tech. And in the past, maybe four years, more and more legal tech, right. And this is a new buzzword, or well, it’s not that new, but it’s definitely a buzz word, nonetheless, that looks on the possibilities that technology has for a variety of legal spheres. Right? And, for me, this is very interesting. Because I am a little techy, I always enjoyed the technology. And often lawyers are not necessarily that techy. And it’s not very natural for us to actually go to technology because we are fairly conservative in the way that we do. We still often use pen and paper when we write our thoughts. The biggest technology core kind of evolution and law has happened with Word, you know, 30 years back.

Willem Janssen 9:57

That’s it’s a very funny statement actually. Because when you mentioned like it’s maybe not so new. Also, I think many of our listeners, I think legal Tech really hasn’t landed very strongly in the tech sector.

Alexandra Andhov 10:08

No, for sure not yet. Right? But and we will hopefully get to it. So, this is the part where I’m thinking, okay, so how can tech help us and, and being with lots of startups, and that’s how it actually I came to the technology, because I work with lots of startups, is to think about technology as a problem-solution. Alright. So, I am very much appreciating that you just mentioned a few minutes ago that, you know, what are the pain points and how the technology should help with those. And I think this is the way how to think about the technology, really solving the problems. And I think that first and foremost, you know, in public procurement, as in any other field, you need to be aware, what are the pain points? And then think critically. I so I’m not here, and I will never say that, you know, technology is the solution for everything and the panacea, I think, no, we need to think critically, because technology can really give power where we did not intend, originally and, you know, have some side effects that we didn’t even think about before. But yeah, maybe we can talk about it later. So yes, and, and the last thing that I’ll mention is that in both in my research, but also in my, in my teaching, and the university, I believe that more and more should lawyers be aware, and be comfortable with technology. And for that to happen, we need to be comfortable also with a little bit of mathematics. So, for instance, maybe I can do a little bit of a promo here. In June, my book that is called ‘Computational law’ is coming up. And the idea there is really to take a legal either student or even not necessarily scholar but practitioner through different stages of explaining what are computations? And what is computational thinking, and what is computational logic, through what is algorithm, to AI and understand what are the elements and how AI works and how machine learning works to the dark side of blockchain? Because I do believe that this is ultimately what all of us, and as I mean, lawyers, and everyone who works within the legal sector, will work with and will face so you need to be aware, what are the possibilities and the limitations?

Marta Andhov 12:45

So, this can actually sound like, it can’t be an answer to the question that I was about to post or a statement that I was about to post, which is the problem that I personally see. And I think a lot of those are public procurers or legal counsels assisting public procures face is that it’s quite an intimidating, right? You tell me blockchain, if you tell me legal tech, it’s sort of okay. I’m not into it. Can I understand it? And I think because of how technical the language is, it’s quite intimidating. So, it sounds like that book potentially can be the entry point of you trying to understand the basic concepts in a way that sort of speaks to you as a non-tech person, but as a person that has some sort of understanding of how law works. Is that fair to say?

Alexandra Andhov 13:31

Yes, that’s the hope. I mean, of course, it will be to the readers to be the judges of that, whether I succeeded or not. But ultimately, is the translation, right? Where I think that a lot of people actually get lost in. Because tech people speak different language than we do, even if we speak English. The way how they understand certain concepts is very different than as we do, like, Take, for example, if you if you meet or talk to any persona on the street, and you say contract, and our legal perception of what contract is, is fairly complex, it’s nuanced. And, you know, what are the legal requirements? What is your freedom to contract that? Where’s the contract for someone else? Well, it can be anything it can be employment contract, agreement can be when you actually just buy something in? And I understand. So, and I think that we need to because how digital our world has become, right? That’s the hypothesis because we are getting more and more digitalized. While we need to come together a little bit more, to be able to communicate much better and much more efficient with the tech people.

Willem Janssen 14:48

So, what I take from this is that we need to be humble to a certain extent, as lawyers, and be open to learning about these technologies because what you just mentioned Marta. I share that. Maybe it’s a bit of a, I have a basic understanding, but I don’t do research in digital technology. So, it does always feel like when someone says, oh, do blockchain or contract management.

Marta Andhov 15:10

For me is a little bit like math. You know, it was like, the whole reason why I went to law is not to see that. So, like you telling me blockchain, are you telling me all this? Oh, I’m not sure.

Willem Janssen 15:18

So, in a way, this episode is about me being open. Very humble, and trying to also show the relevance of, because we do, we do definitely see the relevance. But it’s about, I think, finding the moments where it can actually aid you as a lawyer as a public purchasing. So, thank you for that that introduction, and also highlighting your book on computational law, I look forward to reading it. So, let’s go a bit more. Let’s look at contract management. Because we could do an episode about blockchain about smart contracts. We’re not doing that, because we’ll be here all day. And you told us that our episodes are too long already, at least implicitly, right? So just to get everyone started in this zone, what is contract management? Or what a contract management tools?

Alexandra Andhov 16:06

It can be everything, you know, it’s a very broad concept in your world. In my world, yeah. So, in my own world, and again, not necessarily being public procurement specialist, but contract management tool is a tool that helps a lawyer from everywhere, or from the starting point of even negotiating or thinking about a contract, till telling forcing it or possibly even claiming damages because of the contract. Right? So, there’s this technological solution that should enable different phases of contract life, right? So, the lifecycle of the contract. And you know, in public procurement, the lifecycle is a little bit different, looks a little bit different than, let’s say, in transaction low or in a private law contract. But, nonetheless, there are lots of possibilities. And I can just mention a few. And then, you know, please feel free to jump into anything that sounds anyhow, relevant for public procurement area. So, it can start with negotiating or having given an access to different kinds of templates, right, that are out there that might be suitable for web services, whether it’s good whether it’s both. So, it’s a kind of a template builder, it can have a space for negotiation, for drafting the contract. And not just with the external parties, but also internally. So, if you are a large purchasing body, and you have a number of people who actually need to have a look, and actually sign off the contract before it can go out, this is something that can help and facilitate this process. And plus, trace it, right, because when we come maybe later on to a question of liability and accountability, it can serve from the very echo, then through the eSignature, right, and I think that this is a field by itself, because even in the European Union, different member states have different approaches to the eSignature and actually seeing an eSignature as something that is legally binding, then different kinds of timelines of the contract. And now I’m thinking really complex public contracts that maybe have ties to other 10 or 15 contracts. And now imagine the ability to have real clear understanding when different contracts when different phases come in, and how they’re connected. And what are the deliverables? What are the timelines, what are the deadlines? What are the fines, for instance, right. If for instance, a public private company is delayed, then an up to really different kinds of management reminders, maybe there is a need to bring another party in because something is not delivered as it was because of the quality assurance etc, etc. And up till really finalizing the contract, but also auditing the contract. Because now you have really a tool where anyone, a third party, and all this can be good and bad can come in and have a look. Okay, so how did you do that? And I think that there is great power in the data for the state, for the public authority to actually learn from their mistakes. If there aren’t, you know, we are humans, we make mistakes all the time. So have this kind of data and learn from them. And now, and the last thing I’ll say, is just not to completely push away your audience.

Willem Janssen 19:41

We’re still here.

Alexandra Andhov 19:42

You’re still here. Okay, so quick. So, last thing is really: imagine that you have hundreds or 1000s of these contracts and often this is what actually will happen in reality. You can take a truly kind of a perspective from a helicopter understanding, okay, these are the problematic areas within the public procurement. This is something where we always made mistakes. So, you can improve in the process or in the procedure. And as far as I know, this is what actually is in the heart of the public procurement as a procedure, right. So, these procedural elements can really be fixed, for instance, if there is an issue, but also from the perspective of transparency, or if there are any kind of red flags, because this contract management tool can be easily plugged in other public records, whether they are corporate records, right or corporate registries, whether there are some accounting tax records. And now, all these data is okay. Is this something happening? Is there something happening are there audit companies doing something because there is this one company that is continuously getting the bid over and over and over and winning it?

Marta Andhov 21:08

So, we’re saying, you know, SME that it’s suddenly in on 20 different contracts subcontractor, is that problematic?

Willem Janssen 21:16

So, you mentioned a couple of examples like, so thanks for this teaser, I’m really eager to start discussing all of them a bit more. So, you mentioned negotiation in the contract, electronic signature to trace milestones. And can I call them computational contract. So, really the next step, right, learning from the big data that we’ve accrued over the years with multiple contracts. So, if I reflect on that, maybe we can look a bit at the public sector now. Right. So, these are different stages, I think also of the procurement process, in which you know, contract management tools can be useful, on the one hand to make life better, but perhaps also to just solve some of the pains that we’re experiencing in the public sector at the moment. And the first one that I was thinking of also is just the sheer amount of data, right? So, public sector entities have a lot of data. But what I see, particularly in Dutch practice is, many of them don’t even know what this spend is for the right. So, they have all these contracts. But what happens in practice is, there’s such a clear division, and maybe it’s our fault as lawyers, right? So maybe it’s because we focus so much on the procurement process. And there’s so much time and efforts devoted to it, that we forget that the actual good stuff, perhaps, and I’m saying this as a humble lawyer, perhaps but starts afterwards, right. And this was also something that struck me when I was a PhD student visiting George Washington University when I saw all of a sudden two big books in the cupboard. Whereas in the Netherlands, most of the time, we only have one big book, we have the book about, about Dutch public procurement law, from an EU law perspective, there’s some international stuff, but in the US, all of a sudden, I saw formation of public contracts, and the administration of property management, the management of it, and that was also an eye opener for me. So, like to think, okay, you know, there’s a whole other world right.

Marta Andhov 23:10

That happens afterwards.

Willem Janssen 23:12

Exactly. And I think we, as procurement lawyers are often also cut off afterwards, right?

Marta Andhov 23:21

Yeah. Because what we also very often see is, we are nudged to think about public procurement. And this all cohesive one long process that starts with formation of a specification and notice of what you want to buy and finishes with termination of contract. Right. But the issue of that is that every stage along the way, is done very often by different teams. And if you also consider that people very often, this is also something that we that we experience, right, that people very often leave the jobs and move to something else. And you don’t have really a track of sort of red thread between those stages. So, then this very stereotypical view is that someone is sort of reviewing somewhere three years in public contract what they wanted in the very beginning, and they don’t know so the certain know how or knowledge is lost somewhere along those stages and how we can solve it and, and also how we can really make it meaningful, because we keep on talking about savings. We keep on talking about efficiency, we keep on talking about sustainable consideration. But if the problem is, as you, Willem, mentioned, they don’t even know, contracting authorities don’t even know exactly how much they spend. They don’t really track what happens in the contract management stage. Did you actually save the money or you didn’t? So, on what basis we make those claims or X amount of money have been saved, and also the whole different thing, did anyone actually look how that data is collected. Because we all know and I guess Alex knows the most in that area that the data can be also manipulated, right? So how do you know all these stages? Because I think particularly when it comes to right, like, financial efficiency competition, or that we, we very strongly feel about those things. But I think that if you really put it under a magnifying mirror or sorry, glass, metaphors, then then you actually see that very rarely use, you have a very concrete data and outcome of it. Right.

Willem Janssen 25:34

Yeah, I fully agree. And also, just to add to what you mentioned, about the separation of teams, right, I think it’s, it’s such an such an interesting thing, how it also like, goes into how we structure roles, or the institutional design of procurement in governments. Generally, what my perception is, it is a different person, right. So even they might leave, like you mentioned, but it’s also a different department and a different person that is in charge of both these aspects. Whereas, it would make hell of a lot of sense, perhaps that say, just moving on to a bit of a sustainability angle, right, or social angle. And, so, in the Netherlands, it’s almost stock standard. That’s a problem in that if things get standard, but like, in a way, it’s good that 5% of the contract value is spent on hiring long term unemployed, that is often put in the contract and a contractual condition. And then the hope is that that will spur employment for these people and other opportunities, perhaps even a second chance in the workforce. Right. So, it’s a very noble goal. And I think that procurement can definitely play a role in that. But what happens is, it’s formed in the contract, and then it goes into a drawer of a contract manager, where market parties may or may not actually do it.

Alexandra Andhov 26:51

So, is it monitored, anyhow?

Willem Janssen 26:53

Well, I think the general perception is, is that it’s not monitored, right? There’s stories of and I don’t want to portray, like big construction companies as evil here. Right? Often, they do it, right? But there is a leeway given that they won’t do it, because it isn’t enforced. And I think mostly there is where we, you know, we get into a world where construction companies don’t have to do it or other tenderers, right, not just in the construction world. Or secondly, they can do it. But they do it with the same amount of long-term unemployed people for different contracting authorities. So, they go to one municipality and say, we’ve hired five, and the other they say, we’ve hired five, but it’s the same.

Marta Andhov 27:38

So instead of like 25, it continues to be those five.

Willem Janssen 27:41

Exactly. So, there’s leeway for, you know, not achieving, ultimately what you wanted to do in the contract. And I think that’s where it’s a shame that in a way, even though that there’s of course, contract management sciences, right, and public purchasing sciences, but us lawyers, particularly from the public sector, tend to focus mostly, I think, also from research, right? I think that even more than in practice, right? Because in practice, you have people that do a whole lot, of course, is that that there seems to be a gap there that we’re not filling.

Alexandra Andhov 28:13

Yeah, and I think, you know, what you are mentioning, it’s a thing, it’s reflective, not just about the public procurement process, but any larger institution that has a number of different divisions and parties to the contract and, and different processes that that apply. And, technology here is a tool, right? It opens the door for all of these parties to, to sit at the table at different time, places, or different times in the in the life of the contract. And, I think that, you know, before maybe being super excited, of course, about a technology and I am often but maybe, also there was a thought or question to answer is: So what is the process even by designing the contract at the very beginning, when we design the contract at the very beginning? Are we already thinking about management and enforcement of this contract? Or, you know, those people who design the contract only ever designed it, because if they only ever designed it and never actually managed it, then actually the probably the contract is not going to meet the needs that is envisioned.

Willem Janssen 29:28

I think you’ve touched on a really relevant point here. And also just to get back on the overview that you gave of those four categories. I’m sure there’s more that we can discuss. Look, we only have limited time. But when we talk about the negotiation part, right, I think that’s really relevant for the public sector in the beginning, right. So, we’re not talking about negotiation after the award of the contract, right? That’s like the devil, right? When from a public we cannot do that. Exactly. So, we need to have a transparent process, but often the contract is attached to the procurement documents. So, in a way, the way I would see it or from your description is some of the institutional problems that we’re having with the dividing lines that exist organizationally within the public sector or in a contracting authority could be overcome by having a tool that would help them construct the contract, right, from a budget perspective, from a sustainability perspective, from a public purchasing perspective, so they can work together in drafting the contract. See, that’s okay.

Marta Andhov 30:28

And there are tools like that, right. And I think that this is really good point in which this comes handy, because you at least accumulate the knowledge that goes from the very beginning, right, but we don’t have that much time. So, let’s move on to the to the next one.

Willem Janssen 30:43

Yeah. So electronic signatures. It’s something that I think is very useful and practical, but it’s also a topic signatures that has pissed me off a little bit if I’m completely honest.

Alexandra Andhov 30:52

Why is that?

Willem Janssen 30:53

Because I find there’s, okay, let’s take a different angle. If I want to make my students enthusiastic about public procurement law, I shouldn’t talk about the formalities of signatures. And if I look at the Dutch practice, and I know examples from other member states as well, its procurement law is clearly procedural law, which is also used as an instrument, but it’s still very much procedural. And in a way, it’s very formalistic.

Alexandra Andhov 31:21

Yes.

Willem Janssen 31:22

And I understand that serves a purpose. But I would like to think that we should leave room for fixing those mistakes. So, if the not the person authorized by the articles of association didn’t sign the bid, and didn’t sign that signature, perhaps there should be room for that person to fix that in the procedure. And so far, public procurement law is quite rigid when it comes to, no, we can’t do that. Right, because it’s unequal. And the you should have had your business in order. And I think in a way, some of that discussion was sparked again, during COVID. Right, when electronic signatures became a thing, like who, and we continue to have this discussion. And this is where I think like, okay, the technology solves a part of it, because it’s far more practical, right? Direct, it doesn’t need to be in the country to sign.

Alexandra Andhov 32:12

Yes.

Willem Janssen 32:13

But it doesn’t solve this whole formalistic approach of how we approach public procurement law.

Alexandra Andhov 32:17

Well, actually, that’s okay. So, like, imagine, right, because I assume, and, of course, this depends from country to country, so. But in Denmark, for instance, our register of corporations is a public registry, which means that all of the data there are there are publicly available. So, it’s a public API. And ultimately, what happens is that, in theory, you can bring that into a contract, and you indicate who is to sign the contract, right. And now the technology should be smart enough. And this is not anything substantially challenging to actually do, tech wise, is to say, okay, and compare these two before ever, even one person is going to sign it, but compare it, you plug it into the public registry, and it shows you that there’s a mismatch, so it shows, you know, let’s say exclamation mark, and a person who is preparing this contract will then need to follow up on it. And that’s what I’m saying is, you know, for before submitting the bid, and say, oh, okay, sorry, but according to this, you know, this person should be or even, you know, bringing because, again, we’re living in a digital age where also the email addresses are often registered. So actually, the that contract will go directly to the person who is actually entitled, according to the Public Register of corporations signed a contract.

Willem Janssen 33:46

Okay, that makes me feel a little bit better, but not entirely, because in a way that you know, makes it easier to do the right thing. Yes, but see, you would still do the wrong thing, I think there should be some leeway that contracting authorities or courts should give to these minor things that I don’t think influence the competitive process to an extent where when inequality is achieved. But so, negotiation in the contract, electronic signatures, I really want to talk about the computational contract. But one of the most obvious ones, and we talked about it a bit already is the benefits of really, with a contract management tool, keeping track of all the milestones

Alexandra Andhov 34:25

Yes.

Willem Janssen 34:26

And in a way, I think that’s where the sustainability and social angle comes in, is really enforcing what was promised. So, I think that’s a given. But if we look towards the future, right, we talked a lot about the big amounts of data that we’ll get or have already. How can we? What lies ahead, right? So, say we have all of this, negotiate the contract internally, we use electronic signature, we track all the milestones, and we’re really good at that. And then you come in and you say, it’s not enough, you can actually use computational analysis to get more out of it. What does that dream world, as Marta described it? What does that look like?

Marta Andhov 35:08

What it could do for us?

Alexandra Andhov 35:10

It can, you know, I think that it depends, right? And I’m sorry for starting the answer with ‘it depends’.

Willem Janssen 35:18

Very lawyery start.

Alexandra Andhov 35:21

But it can give you the big picture, the broader understanding what actually has been achieved, what hasn’t been achieved, for instance, what has been achieved through not just one contract. But imagine the computations actually measuring some data, some indicators, showing you, for instance, that some of the provisions that you actually use lots of your negotiating power, are never even enforced or relied upon. Right? So are redundant.

Marta Andhov 35:55

So, the time and money that you put into it actually is not giving you the outcome?

Alexandra Andhov 35:59

Exactly. And this is, and this is not just a sound of future, because there are companies and there are a couple of also there is one at least company that does this already here in Denmark, I will not mention the name. But if you look for computational contracts, you will find them out.

Marta Andhov 36:16

And I saw what they did, and they did it in public procurement setting is pretty cool. Actually.

Alexandra Andhov 36:20

Exactly. So, it’s already out there. And the question is, whether the public authorities are willing and ready to actually move along and utilize these possibilities.

Marta Andhov 36:34

So then bringing back to the point, Willem, that you made, so if you have this type of computational management tool, which sort of has a little bit to my limited understanding, Alex, correct me if I’m saying something doesn’t make sense. But it’s a little bit how that through AI, it almost learned itself, right. So, it tells you, well, if you promised those five long term unemployed, that bumped up the offer by X amount of money, this is the extra that you paid on it, right, so to speak, and then you didn’t follow up on it. So, there is a certain amount of money that you kind of paid premium for, but you never followed up. So, maybe next time or actually consider following up or don’t include it.

Alexandra Andhov 37:17

Yes, or it gives you an advice that something you know, because often things do not happen because people don’t have enough time or, or forget about things, right. Because even if you have the digital contracts in your folder, how many of us, and plus take into account that people changing their positions and so on, actually stay with the contract through the entire life cycle of that contract. So, having a tool that reminds you on some actionable rights that you have as a public authority delays, fines, or anything requesting reports or requesting additional data on, for instance, those five unemployed, or longtime unemployed people, or even comparing their names in order to figuring out whether the those are the five people that they mentioned, for their 100 contracts, or actually, they created value for the money.

Willem Janssen 38:20

So, creating value. I think that’s a that’s a perfect way of also coming to a close on the main. One aspect that you briefly mentioned, but that it’s still just like to highlight is also the potential I think, if we have our data in order through contract management tools, it has great potential for transparency for the fight against corruption. I think that is something that’s very vital for the public sector. So, in a way, having that in order allows contracting authorities to just to be very transparent, right? There’s no excuse.

Marta Andhov 38:48

And, for sure, I guess, in our optimistic approach, there’s a whole next episode that at some point, we could have also about, sort of, I will call it very cheekily, kind of dark side of all of it, like the issues of privacy, the various sort of downsides, right, of really having this big brother on everything that for sure, along the way, you need to somehow also introduce checks and balances to do that, right. But it is a massive topic, we hope that Alex will come back at some point to discuss some other points.

Willem Janssen 39:20

You don’t have to answer now if you will return, we’ll leave that in the middle.

Alexandra Andhov 39:24

I’ll be happy to, I’ll happily return.

Marta Andhov 39:26

But we will wrap up the main course of our podcast and mov on to the desert. And desert today, we were trying to think what could be an interesting, lighter element to wrap up today. And we spent a fair bit of time discussing issues relevant for PhDs and young starting researchers and academics. But we also realized that all three of us in a fairly recent-ish time transition from what you would call a fairly junior positions to the mid-level position of Associate Professor, and we thought that this can be an interesting entry point of reflecting where are we it’s something changed? Do we have a different role?

Willem Janssen 40:09

Yeah, so maybe for the desert, we can all highlight one thing that we perceived, or that we noticed or what’s different, does that work? I’m just looking left and right, but no one could see that. Because, I, for sure, when I was made Associate Professor in June of last year, so it’s been a year now. And in a way, what struck me is that I felt like I was the same person, but others perceive me a bit differently, which I thought was interesting. All of a sudden sitting at the same table with a group of PhDs, maybe I was exaggerating it, maybe it was also me reflecting on it. But I did notice there was a bit of a change there. And I thought that was a something that because it is a more, I would say because obviously on paper, it’s more senior, but it also changes some of the dynamics of how you’re perceived, and what your role is in the faculty. So that was, I don’t know what to do with that, first of all, I don’t know how to if that’s a bad thing, I think it’s normal, it also happened to me when I was when I started transitioning to a more senior lecturer, students didn’t see me as one of them anymore. So, I started teaching when I was like 24 or something, and then you’re not too far off from their world. But now I think with Associate, you’re very far off from someone that just started teaching. And that changes something in the social dynamics. So, that was what I wanted to share.

Marta Andhov 41:40

Alex, what about you?

Alexandra Andhov 41:43

You see, I’m now reflecting whether I’ve observed something, but maybe, you know, I’m just not as…

Marta Andhov 41:51

…oblivious.

Alexandra Andhov 41:52

Well, I’m more oblivious, right. Maybe not that attentive to..

Willem Janssen 41:56

Or maybe I’m just not a nice guy. I think that’s maybe it? No, I hope not.

Alexandra Andhov 42:00

I don’t think so. No, but what I feel that the Associate Professor position opened for me personally, is the ability to support others much more than before as a, postdoc, or as Assistant Professor, you can try to, but you don’t have that much of, I wouldn’t say the foot in the room or statement or even, like your ability to apply for funding and to create some something of a value is, is a little bit restricted, right? And when maybe rightfully so, from the perspective of the institution, that you are only at the faculty for a limited period of time, and suddenly you’re a tenured. So, obviously, you are here for a long term. So, the institution and other foundations, which is the reality here in Denmark, are more willing to support your vision. But that’s what I feel. This kind of gives you or, gives me the opportunity to support the people around me and support the junior researchers but also students in a different way that it was possible before.

Willem Janssen 43:16

So that really echoes with me. So, it’s more leadership, it’s more providing a platform for others. What about you, Marta?

Marta Andhov 43:22

I kind of think that you have a particular position because it’s this mid-level right? And that means on the one hand side, you probably have been in academia for long enough to see variety things, see what you like, what you don’t like, would you would want to change if you have an opportunity. But also, you’re kind of still on the way, right? You didn’t arrive yet there is still that one glorious position in front of you. Which means that you also need to still like work within the system that you are. I think for me, the biggest change was, until this position, it was very much: okay, what I need to do for me to progress, it was much more individualistic, I think, okay, I need to do this and that right now. And I don’t know, what it is specifically, you know, turning to the position of associate professorship, or is it the matter of also SAPIENS coming in, and suddenly having the platform or those 15, young scholars that I particularly feel, you know, sort of not responsible, but just I really deeply care for all of them to do well. But I think for me is this change that is not any more about me, is about the fact that I feel quite protective of the younger scholars that I work with, I feel like I have right now the privilege that I need to sort of stand for certain values that I believe, even if it takes, you know, a certain amount of heat or directs a certain amount of heat on me, because I cannot expect that from the younger ones. Because I would hate if anyone would expect that from me when I was in that position, the privilege of a little bit more, you know, permanent position or stable position rather, but at the same time, the conflict or not conflict, but the stress around the fact that you don’t want to rock the boat too much, because you still kind of want to progress in your career. And I think this sort of balancing how you figure out how you do a sort of a little revolution, but within the system with the people on the board rather than against them. That’s, that’s quite interesting. And that’s, for me, the biggest, I think, change.

Willem Janssen 45:38

So we, I can say we, are at the table, but are we?

Marta Andhov 45:44

Are we really?

Willem Janssen 45:46

And it goes without saying that we’re, well, very appreciative about how far we’ve gotten and all the people that have helped us in getting here and for sure. And I think the question is also you’ve arrived, now what, right? So, it’s this, this transition also in terms of content, like, okay, it’s not just about my particular research anymore. It’s about vision of where we take the university, and what do we do with student education and that type of stuff. And I think that’s, well, as far as I know, you too, it’s also a very much of a fun position to be in. But it comes also with struggles. And that’s, I think, what we wanted to do so. So, thank you so much for being open about this is just to get the discussion going. Because I think every transition in academia comes with its own struggles, whether you’re a PhD, whether you’re an Assistant Professor, Postdoc, or any type of position that you’re in, it comes with challenges and having to overcome hurdles in yourself, but also in institutions.

Marta Andhov 46:40

Yeah, I think like we until now, we were building ourselves. And now, it’s really about building the teams that you work with and people around you and creating platforms for others and how you do it and how you giving the best service to people around you, right? So, I think that’s a really cool way to wrap it up.

Willem Janssen 47:01

Are we going for time, Alex?

Alexandra Andhov 47:02

Well.

Marta Andhov 47:06

That’s a quick one. Okay. Well, Alexandra, thank you so much for joining us and being our very first guest on Bestek Public Procurement Podcast. Willem, you’re sticking around for a couple more days. So, we’ll do some more of this.

Willem Janssen 47:16

For sure.

Marta Andhov 47:18

Thank you so much to our listeners and we hope you’re going to tune in for our next one. This was Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast.

About Bestek 47:25

This was Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast. Do you want to contribute to today’s discussion, and share your thoughts on LinkedIn or Twitter? Do you have an idea for a future episode? Write to us at www.bestekpodcast.com!

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