Marta Andhov  0:00  

Welcome to Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast. Today, we’re talking with Willem about circularity, procurement, and procurement awards.

Bestek Voice  0:17  

Welcome to Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Willem Jansen and Dr. Marta andor discuss public procurement law issues their love of food, and academic life. In each episode, Willem, Marta, and their guests search for answers to intriguing public procurement questions. This is Bestek. Let’s dish off public procurement law.

Marta Andhov  0:41  

So Willem, today we will have…

Willem Janssen  0:45  

Gosh, you started off seriously.

Marta Andhov  0:48  

So serious.

Willem Janssen  0:50  

I felt like I was in high school, but yeah, sorry. We’re going to have a very serious conversation.

Marta Andhov  0:55  

We will be tackling a very serious issue today, and that is an issue of circularity. And I have so many questions. One of them is, or maybe before jumping to the question, let’s just scope. So our main is the circularity. The purpose of today, within the main, is, again, what we’ve been doing in our previous episode, to scope a little bit so where circularity comes in place, what it is, how it relates to procurement, how it relates to everything else that we’ve been talking about in policy context and objectives and procurement. And then we are going to point out some of the legal aspects and interests that I will try to get out of Willem. Where he’s interested in this topic, what he plans to do, or what he’s doing within that topic. And then we will move on to the dessert. And we would talk last time we talked about pop culture today, we kind of little bit continue with that theme, and that’s awards. So you know, Oscars, procurement Oscars, Golden Globes or alike. Let’s see whether we have something on that or are we absolutely losing our plot? 

Marta Andhov  2:08  

So on that note, Willem, circularity. Tell me a little bit more um, how you came across, or how you started to dive into this topic. More specifically, your editor, co-editor with Roberto of a brilliant book on sustainable public procurement and the mandatory requirements. How does that shift right now happen? Is there a shift, why this topic, and how this is relevant, as we always try to do this for practitioners really?

Willem Janssen  2:37  

Yeah. I mean valid questions, I think the starting point when you start talking about circularity is we’re really initially talking about resources and use of resources, and that we need to do that differently because if we keep using the resources that we have on the planet today, we would need three planets by 2050, right? So there’s a limited amount of resources, and there’s still an increasing demand when it comes to resources, right? So there’s a massive mismatch that causes a link and also a risk related to climate change and biodiversity loss. And the idea of circularities is that we don’t have a linear economy that basically uses and then dumps resources. More generally speaking, it’s like a flat line, but it’s actually a circle, right? In which natural resources are put into the circle once, but then they continue to circle throughout in different ways, right? So rather than just using waste and putting it in the ground afterward as a dump landfill, we actually want to look at ways of making that circular flow and loop happen rather than, you know, just causing harm to the environment.

Marta Andhov  2:49  

Is that related to this concept of the donut economy? Or is that something different? 

Willem Janssen  3:32  

No, partially, I mean, there’s lots of discussion about, what it means to have a circular economy. And donut economy is part of that discussion about changing the economy that we have now, which is very much focused on profit-making, and perhaps also negatively said, exploitation of natural resources. And I think it’s relevant to talk about it, there are a lot of objectives in terms of policy to achieve this circular economy. So say the Netherlands, the Dutch government in the Netherlands wants to be fully circular by 2050 so any resource use should be circular by 2050 and also, if you look at the Green Deal, right, even though we’re under the new von der Leyen commission, we’re still unsure about what’s happening to all of those promising objectives. That was also the focus on an economy that wouldn’t need new resources to be put in any more, and that’s also where I think ultimately procurement comes in because procurement is then seen as a lever, as we’ve talked about a lot on this podcast, to effectuate that change, right? If you procure and set up your procurement procedures with circular objectives in mind, so you don’t just buy furniture, but you buy circular furniture. You don’t just build in buildings, public buildings, in a traditional sense, but you actually apply circular construction methods. That then aids in the achievement of those circularity objectives. So that’s, I think, to make it more feasible from a policy perspective.

Marta Andhov  5:41  

So if I am to put on the hat of our potentially quite skeptical listener, guide me through it. Is that just another thing that just landed on my desk as a procurer? And also because the example that you that you’re giving, you know, question, let’s say, about decarbonization. So that could be green procurement, that could be sustainable procurement. It sounds also like it could be a type of circular procurement. So help us out a little bit understanding is it still all kind of the same, and we’re just giving it new, fancy names? What do you think is the purpose? Or is this something really different? As I say, is it kind of adding another onion layer, rather than peeling it, adding it to my already quite big portfolio of tasks as a procurement specialist?

Willem Janssen  6:38  

You’re making me the bringer of bad news right now, the bad messenger, but perhaps and perhaps not. The way I would look at it is, I think for every procurement, you need to have a look at what is the most suitable approach to include public policy objectives, whether they be climate neutral, CO2 emission reductions, or circular approaches, right? And if I make it, may make it a bit more dramatic. To be honest, I think if we talk about circularity, and we’re talking about circular society, we really need to look at it more broadly, and not just look at it from a material perspective. Because I think if we really start to want to start closing loops. We need to talk about nutrients in water systems. We need to talk about circular food systems and how we organize agriculture. It creates special planning questions. Where do we put what right? Because there’s limited environmental space, but also physical space. So if we’re thinking about circularity and having circular chains, right? So I spoke to a municipality recently, and they were thinking about an industrial area, and they said we’d actually like to, you know, put every actor in a supply chain that could add to a circular loop in one area, right? To also avoid transport costs. And of course, then I was the bringer of bad news, and I said, Oh, it’s hard to tender ecosystems, right, to have the entire ecosystem simply because you want a specific spot allocated. Perhaps we could look at that, but I think when you look at that one, it’s about choices of what focus you have in a procurement right? So, yes, it is another thing on your desk, but I think you need to be very selective about what you do when. But if there is that loop system that’s relevant from a circular perspective, if materials take place or any of the other examples that I gave you, I think it should be a part of it, and that there is something that has always puzzled me a bit, perhaps surprisingly, because I think us lawyers were always seen as the ones that love definitions and stuff. But, it’s always surprised me a bit that the European Commission adopts a separate approach to circularity, where they say you’ve got green procurement, circular procurement, socially responsible public procurement. Yes, they give a valid definition. But in my view, I don’t see why circularity couldn’t just be a part of green or sustainable in a broader sense, because they have different objectives, but they’re all trying to achieve some type of green, sustainable transition.

Marta Andhov  9:18  

Just to add to what you’re saying, the reason why I posted that question, is because, when I work with public procurements or private companies on developing sustainable strategies, and then how you operationalize them into your procurement and contracts, and how you kind of go about it, the way that I try to explain that, and I wonder whether you see sense in this, is to say, well, first of all, the commission is not really helping in doing all these different parallel things. I think that it would be better if we would create a type of umbrella, and that umbrella could be called Sustainable Public Procurement, and then you explain that you have all those different streams, but the purpose of those different streams is ultimately to operationalize the notion of delivering the sustainability. Because I do understand, and you know, we did that with Federica Muscaritoli in our chapter to your book right, and we defined this sort of low… what was it, low carbon emission procurement, I believe, or something like that, or low emission procurement. And you know, already thereI was suggesting in that chapter, that the purpose is not to just add one more definition, but the purpose of what you already also mentioned is you streamlining, and you’re saying, Okay, we need to focus on this. It doesn’t mean that the other things don’t matter, but we will be focusing on this, and those will be the low-hanging fruits, and we will address that. And then what is also, I think, quite positive for the organization, is that you can tick several boxes, because with one initiative that you really take on, you can say, Yeah, this is on my emissions or my climate, on my green and it also is on my sustainability. And under specific circumstances, depending on what it is, it can be your circularity, but I think those streams are more focused on particular sectors and particular things that you’re actually trying to do because sustainability is so big and so broad and it’s quite fluffy, so then you need to chop it to specific focal points. And if I understand you correctly, then that goes back to, ultimately, resources, really in circularity. And then we’re moving to these 10 R’s that are present. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Willem Janssen  11:40  

Yeah. So when you look at the the scale of linear economy towards a circular economy, there’s an R scale that is often referred to, and there’s all these words with, start with an R. So there’s 10 of them, right? And we basically start with the worst option is where it turns into a loss of resources. It’s a landfill. We’ve used it. We basically dump it, right? And if you start moving up the R ladder in a positive sense, so perhaps in the sense you move from linear to circular, you really go from like this end-of-life phase to the return phase, where we talk about recover and recycle, in many cases, circularity is confused with recycling. But really, recycling is only step eight of the whole discussion. So that’s rather low still. Where it gets more interesting is when we get into, like, an optimal use phase, a very much a consumption phase, where you preserve and extend the life of products, and that’s where you go from repurpose to remanufacture, to refurbish, to repair, to reuse. So in all those aspects, there are interesting examples where all of a sudden, architects get contracted by the government, and they don’t actually just design a building that they think looks amazing, right? Like the waterfall building, or anything architecturally amazing, they actually look at a a marketplace for set up by a demolition company, which has retracted all of these parts from previous buildings. And you can look at, okay, so this is what’s available. This is what I can reuse. And all of that then becomes part of the new building, in which you could actually say, well, 80% of this building is from formerly used from all the parts of previous buildings. So that’s where it gets a bit more interesting. And then when you get really into the very circular economy thinking, is when you think about the design phase, which is the most sustainable part of it, where you have responsible use and manufacturing, and I think that’s when you start thinking about reduce and rethink, right, how we actually operate. And the highest on the food chain, or the highest on the art chain, is this refuse, right? I think procurement just simply means, you know, our scoping exercise, we don’t buy, right? We don’t actually go for the procurement, which I think feels a bit counterproductive, because that’s our whole being, right? We’re here to buy, and we’re here to interpret laws that relate to buying. But of course, if you don’t, then you don’t use materials. So that’s even better. And I suppose there’s, I’ll end the discussion about the Rs. There’s also a part where some people say, well, this R doesn’t go far enough, right? Because you’re still talking about the status quo. Actually, we should be. We’ve gone into minus so far. So we really need to think about regeneration and giving back to the earth. And that’s, you know, it’s a whole other way of design thinking as well. But that’s really so we go from landfill to basically refuse, and then everything in between can mean a stronger emphasis on circular economy. That’s generally the frame of mind that people have when they talk about this topic.

Marta Andhov  15:01  

So undoubtedly, also there is a similar logic that there is when we talk about sustainability, about ensuring the future generation, you know, having access, ultimately, to the same riches of Earth, let’s say, right conditions of living and so on. Did we just not so good in protecting but this, I think that you know, anyone who listens to this will say, undoubtedly, we are all on board. This sounds great, particularly if you consider that we reached a level in which we don’t repair anything, right, whatever you buy, everything goes, really to be thrown away. We moved in our generation, I think, from our parent’s generation, hugely from this notion of repairing anything. So I think logically, absolutely everyone is with you or with us on this, but where do the problems lie? 

Marta Andhov  15:57  

And I imagine that’s where we’re moving to, what are the legal setups. What are the legal questions? And I think that, as we often come across in our professions, we always say, Well, this sounds great, but legally speaking, there is a challenge or problem here and there. So when it comes to the research that you conducting, that you’ll be working on in all this objective policy framework or automatic framework, where you see some interesting legal questions or challenges that we need to tackle to help potentially redesign law maybe, or our way of thinking, or yeah, tell us.

Willem Janssen  16:41  

Yeah. So excuse me. So I think, just going back to what you said before, and then I’ll come to legal things. One of the really interesting examples was also like, about this repair that you mentioned, right? It makes so much sense, right? But many of the products that we have are designed to not be repaired. They’re actually designed to break, so we buy a new one, right? So there’s a whole, like, producer’s responsibility that’s lacking, but also from a procurer perspective, like, if you would, as a procurement department suggest to have repaired products, right to have repaired fully functional, refurbished excellent medical equipment. Many hospitals would want to, when procurement officers in hospitals would all of a sudden say, we’ve got these great options to refurbish. It has the same functionalities, but, you know, it is refurbished, many medical practitioners would then say no, we want the cutting edge. It’s patients first, right? It’s patient safety, not sustainability first. So I think that’s a very difficult position, and that’s why it’s so nice. And I forgot to mention this, I have been involved in the Institute for Circular Society, for a year as one of their scientific coordinators, leading on a couple of these topics. And this is one of the examples that come straight out of the medical hospitals where they say, like, Yeah, I mean, we don’t want it, right? It’s patient safety first. And I think it’s not just budgets. So many of the things that we’re discussing are institutional change and professionalization, we know this from other sustainability-related topics, right? Wanting them to procure more green or more social, it’s very much related to the core. But when you, just going back to your question, I think there’s all of a sudden momentum, right? When you talked about circular economy or circularity, for years on edge. I work a lot with a colleague who’s, I think, a leading scholar on this, because Bucha is in environmental law in Europe, and he always started his classes a bit confusingly, or at least this is what he told me, because his students always wondered, what’s the law? And he said, Well, it’s really action plans in Europe, right? There are pieces of discussion that we’re having about environmental law. What is waste? Because if something is identified as waste, you all of a sudden can’t use it in future projects anymore, right? Then it’s deemed, as you know, something that we need to get rid of, legally speaking. And more recently, and I think also partially spurred further by the EU Green Deal, we’ve seen a stronger focus, right? So when you look at the landscape now, and I don’t intend on touching fully on them, but if you’re interested as a listener look at the Ecodesign regulation, look at the sustainable construction materials, what’s come out there, or critical raw materials. And I think all of those relate to aspects of the circular economy and how we deal with resources. And all of a sudden, Europe, I think, is becoming a bit stricter, and the same time at the national level, you see Circular Economy acts being adopted by national legislators, so all of a sudden we’re not confused as a student when you start classes. But actually, there’s some legal basis here. And I think the same goes for public procurement, and the public procurement directives are that it still poses difficult questions there as well, right? In a way, it seems. That circularity can also ride the wave of broader sustainability discussions. But as far as I can see now, particularly circular projects also bring about particular procurement questions, and also procurement law questions, which I think deserve some addressing. I think in the future.

Marta Andhov  20:18  

For sure. And I think that just to add to what you already mentioned, I think that this is also like one of those moments when you look around and you’re saying, yeah, a lot of people that we have a chance to work with are really on the cutting edge of academically leading this discussion, right? You mentioned your colleague, but both of us are involved in the circus project that is led by Professor Vibe Ulfbeck, and it’s really on circular supply chains, and also some colleagues from Oslo and the center led by Professor Sjåfjell really looking at the issues where we should make it illegal to have products that cannot be repaired. There needs to be a right to repair, and the aspect of producers liability and the product guarantees, and all these different things right, like, if you produce something and it’s refurbished, are you still the one, the guarantor of the operability and functionality of products. So there are a lot of really interesting questions arising here. 

Marta Andhov  21:26  

So do you have at this stage, because I know that it’s a call to action moment that is a moment when you’re really scoping and defining your work within this area that you that you want to focus on going forward? Are there any particular issues that you already identify as crucial, or the main challenges when it comes to procurement law specifically? Yeah.

Willem Janssen  21:52  

So what I’d be really interested in hearing from our listeners is one, does this resonate? Because it’s very embryonic, right? There’s research already done on this topic somewhat more broadly, so say Jonas Vevatne from Oslo University, but also in the Netherlands, and then across the EU there’s research that’s done now, but I think it deserves still some further scoping from a solely procurement law perspective. So what I’d love to do is just briefly highlight them, and then I’d be very curious to hear from our listeners. One, does this resonate? Two, what should be added, and then hopefully I can take that along in the the rest of the research project. So one of these things is, I think if you’ll allow me to just start Marta, then one would just be the uncertainty of outcomes. I think what is often present in many of the circularity discussions, is we’re not sure how certain projects, circular projects will develop, which means that there is, I think, a tension that could exist in practice when it comes to the need to evaluate all the bids equally, so assuming that bids need to be done transparently, and they need to fulfill all the requirements in public procurement law. How does that then coincide with equality, when particularly circular scenarios? Because we don’t know how certain products like certain chrome provision, chrome type of applications in paint or PFAs, type of discussions, all of those, we thought were good products, but ultimately they turned out to not be good materials for the environment in the end. So we don’t know how circularity will develop. And I wonder how that then coincides with equality in a competitive setting where we need to have that transparent and equal situation, when are we then just comparing apples with pears, right? 

Marta Andhov  24:06  

And the scientific underpinning of that right? Because what you’re discussing right now brings to my attention, I yesterday learned from the internet really about The Court of Appeal in the Hague, Netherlands, acknowledging the duty of care for companies like Shell and the aspect of counteracting and reducing CO2 emission. And one of the arguments there, when it comes to you not really assigning liability in that context, is pointing out that you know, the different types of emissions that there is lack of consensus on the scientific side. So I wonder that as similar, if we’re looking at the arguments within the courts and we predicting what might be happening, there is also a similar discussion here, in context of circularity, saying, Well, do we have a really standing, established science and methodologies that we can rely on, particularly if we’re bringing that into the competitive setup of public procurement, right? Would you agree that that might be similarly applicable here?

Willem Janssen  25:11  

Yeah, I think you would want some certainty, yeah. And I think also what the so colleagues of mine started teaching the course Europe and climate change last week. So they had to rearrange their course material a little bit because, of course, this climate case, was vital in that sense. And I think there you see the same, right? I think it was obviously a loss, a familiar defense, and a victory for Shell. But still, there’s, there are some touching points where you could say, well if we could establish what the responsibility is of shell and also the scientific underpinning of their activities. I think that could potentially help. So the same goes for procurement, right? And so you’re right. I think the comparison is there. If we would have certainty, then that wouldn’t be an issue with equality. Shall I just list them? 

Marta Andhov  26:03  

Yes. 

Willem Janssen  26:04  

Number two, I think the fact that it took me quite a while to even summarize, these Rs, right, the refuse, rethink, recycle, recover, and anything in between, I think it says something about, one, the life cycle of a product, and also the fact that we need to have a certain length of cooperation. Right? If you really want to make sure that you have a whole circular loop, you need to work a lot longer, perhaps with entities, than we’re doing at the moment, right? Say you would re-tender a contract every four years, right? You haven’t reached the end of the life cycle. Then. So does that mean something for service contracts that we close? Or also how do we define the scope? Right? In procurement law, we’re obliged to have a defined scope of the contract, because that needs to be in the tendering document. So what does that mean, that we say, well, this is where we’re actually wanting to have an intense cooperation with this entity. And they’re, they’re going to build this building in a circular way for us will be part that it’ll be circular planning. It will be a circular building, and then also circular renovation, and then afterward repurposing. So it will be involved with this entity, not just in construction, but also in servicing, because we think that would lead to the most sustainable circular outcome. So that means something that the cooperation needs to be a lot longer, and that from a procurement perspective, we instantly start thinking, Oh, vendor lock-in. We’re instantly locked in with one entity for so long, and this is going to be terrible, we need to re-tender, and we need to be competitive to make sure that you know that they’re on the edge of their seat, whereas you know from if you start from circularity, it makes a lot more sense to work longer with entities. So I think that also says something about how we look at it from a procurement law perspective. 

Marta Andhov  27:58  

And I think when you dive into again, really how those things develop, sustainability, decarbonization, similarly to all this circularity, it’s a process, right? There is a process. You need to collect a certain amount of data about those things. You need to try it. You need to identify the short comments you need to improve. It’s really relational. And I think that’s why we also see a resurfacing over the last years really in the context of all these new initiatives of focus on relation, relational contracts, right? Because it’s you need time, you need to figure out those things. And I think as we talk often about adjustment of legal structures and frameworks to those new, contemporary challenges. I think that this is where we really need to think about it differently. If we are serious about those things within the procurement, this very choppy approach is just that one project. I don’t look at anything beyond this one project, and as you say, also a relatively short contract. It’s difficult to deliver those. And we have, I think, two options, change something in that line, or on the other hand side, we will be behind because you need to wait for quite a long for all those things to be really circular. I’m sorry, crystallized that it is in that kind of choppy way, black and white, and you can really use that right? Within the criteria of the process. Alternatively, you can push it to contract performance conditions and sort of deal with it within the performance but again, how long is your performance, right? And you don’t compete, then, I guess, on that basis. 

Willem Janssen  29:43  

Yeah, so I think then, if we really take this length of this cooperation, and I have a third point, and I think Fredo, I mentioned him in the last episode for his reference to Chandler Bing, now more towards the example that he gave him, and he also asked me, like, so how does it work with ownership? So if you re-tender, right, what happens to ownership? And it taps into our previous conversation about contract law and about the type of, so if it also taps into servitization discussions about not buying products anymore, but really a service, right? Where entities go into a construction site and they say, well, the air circulation or ventilation system that’s not part of the ownership of the building we own, that we service it, and it stays in our ownership. And then, if you, you know, need to start all entities on equal footing in a procurement procedure, what happens to that ownership? The question is all the data, say for a project released or not, you know.

Marta Andhov  30:45  

Absolutely, how that flows? And then why are we on ownership, also liabilities, right? Or something like a common liability, I think, is a favorite subject, ultimately, to any lawyer, right? How we how we protect our clients, how we protect whoever that person you represent. And the question is really here, we always hope everything works, and then 95% of the time probably it does, but something gets refurbished in a different way, suddenly there is a risk, right? And that risk happens. Who is responsible? The original producer, the one that refurbished it, the one that sort of did something in it. You know, when the guarantee starts, when the guarantee finishes, all these different elements. And the last thing that I would add here is, I wonder Willem, whether we also in this whole conversation, do not need to identify more first-mover sectors and the ones that should not tap into it. You mentioned hospitals. You know, an argument that I had with our American colleagues often about sustainability is because, you know, usually the academics from us that we interact, they are based in Washington, so defense procurement is a really big focal port for them. And similarly to the arguments that you mentioned in the context of hospitals, you know, risk and patients, they also will say, well, we don’t care if the boots are from recyclable material or not. What we care about is the safety of our soldiers in combat. So those things are not that important. So I do think that I wonder whether, in the context of circularity, you can identify that in some things, there are higher risks, then maybe we need to wait more. And they are, again, those sort of low-hanging fruits that you can identify, and you can try to rule out procurements in those sectors with circularity in mind in the first place.

Willem Janssen  32:40  

Yeah, for sure. I have two more; one that taps into maybe the first one that I spoke about when it came to uncertainty of outcomes. I think also when we talk about awarding contracts based on life cycle costs, right? Because the life cycle and the flow of or the life of a product and materials is still so uncertain, I think that there’s a specific award issue there. And then finally, I think, a more traditional, broader and that, don’t think that’s unique for circularity, but because of this uncertainty, there’s also, I think, an issue with enforcement of the contract, and you’ll end up in a lot of tricky situations about, you know, this is not what we intended to achieve. Also, discussions about modification in, you know, in, I think, also working from a circular perspective also requires you to be agile, that perhaps the scientific underpinning changes, that the way that we go about working with material changes and that it means that the project, if we particularly, go for a longer project that requires some flexibility in how we set up the terms and conditions, so in terms of not just enforcing the circular objectives, but also being flexible in that delivery setting. And I think those, if I look at the uncertainty of outcomes, lengths of cooperation, transfer of ownership, uncertain, unclear, life cycle, costs, and enforcement issues. I think those are definitely talking points, right, that we need to address when we talk about hindering the role of the law. And the good news is, I don’t think it’s all bad, right? I think in many ways you can include circularity already in technical specifications in the life cycle costing that I mentioned, you can include it in a lot of phases of the procurement, not procurement law. But I think we need to address these points, it seems, I think, more vividly, in order to really be able to. Say, well, the law isn’t just a hindering factor, it actually provides safeguards but is also accommodating to the move from a linear to a circular society.

Marta Andhov  34:52  

For sure, and I also have in mind that I don’t think that we are in a situation where we need to invent everything from the ground, because there are some adjacent areas that have been tackling a similar question, maybe in a slightly different context, but this aspect of uncertainty that you mentioned as a last one, I think that we can look question of innovation and procurement have been circulating around for some time. How do we build innovation? How you deal with this unpredictability, where the innovation can ultimately end up with, you know, innovation partnership has been on that basis, introduced and so on. So I wonder whether we can look into, you know, already established, if that is literature and developments within, let’s say, procurement and innovation field, to see whether we can learn anything out of that and bring to circularity to address the uncertainty, and similarly, some of those sustainability issues that are adjacent to circularity, there will be no answer to all of it, obviously, because we also don’t have full answers to sustainability issues. But I think that they can be grouped, they can be sort of helped in a variety of this conversation. So I think that we should be optimistic. 

Marta Andhov  36:12  

But to wrap up our main in this regard, what would be your call for action? Because I know you really like it when we have these opportunities to interact with our listeners. So what do you think we could ask our dear listeners, how can they contribute to Bestek and somehow get involved in creating this research?

Willem Janssen  36:33  

So one would be, you can contact me directly, of course, you can do it via LinkedIn, via the posts that we’ll have, of course, contribute there, wherever, whatever you feel comfortable with. But I think I have two questions. I think that what we talked about today, does that resonate? And have you come across that when you’re implementing circular projects, what could be potential solutions to it? And I think secondly, if you think the list is incomplete or not coherent, not useful or you think that’s not an issue at all, also let me know because I’d love to engage in the discussion and see where perhaps procurement law isn’t an issue, or where it is an issue, and what should be added to that list. So I’m still in this, like, really, playground type of mood when it comes to this research, where I think, like, let’s just explore all together, and we’re all happy friends. So I look forward to hearing from you.

Marta Andhov  37:22  

Yeah. But I think that this is also a really kind of cool moment for any practitioners that had a chance to come across, or may had some of those questions to get involved, because hopefully we can again spend some time in our academic capacity to answer some of those questions, and in the end, help the practice, right? Which we we always try to do, but that’s a really nice way of wrapping out the main, let’s segue to our dessert. So dessert is, again, a bit more fun topic, slightly procurement-related, but, yeah…

Willem Janssen  38:00  

This beforehand was so much fun as well, Marta, come on, give us some more credit.

Marta Andhov  38:04  

I don’t know why we always say it that way. We need to come up with…

Willem Janssen  38:07  

No, but you say that, I think everything is fantastic that we do.

Marta Andhov  38:12  

But I also very much enjoyed our substantial conversation. So yeah, well, maybe a little bit more quirky that might be is a bit better way of describing it. Um, dessert section. 

Marta Andhov  38:24  

And today we.. last time we spoke about pop culture and in the same way we were thinking. And it’s maybe slightly inspired by the fact of my relocation to Auckland, to New Zealand, and when I arrived, within the first two weeks here, I already, you know, had a chance to participate in a procurement conference, supply chain procurement conference. But also there were great celebration procurement awards here. And it was a black tie gala with, you know, a little Oscar looking like procurement awards and all these different things. And I remember also some years ago when the Bangor University and Welsh Government organized procurement weeks, and there were also procurement awards and a big gala and so on. And I don’t know whether this is me wanting to have a reason to put on a gown and see all my colleagues in tuxedos. But I was thinking, you know, do we have something like that more broadly? Is it more very specific to the sector? Is there anything like that connected with acknowledgment of a great performance in academia, our students, and procurement awards? A) should we have it? What’s the added value? Is there an added value? Or is it just fun? And trying to look into some examples of those, and how they’re being used. Willem any thoughts or comments?

Willem Janssen  39:58  

Yeah, for sure. I mean I think there are a couple of distinctions that we can make here, right? So we have the ones that you mentioned, even though it sounds really cool, the gala dinners, unfortunately, don’t really exist for academics. That seems to be more of on the procurement practitioners type of side, and basically. 

Marta Andhov  40:15  

I see in the future, the Bestek Procurement Awards.

Willem Janssen  40:20  

Well, why not?

Marta Andhov  40:22  

We need some sponsors for that, I think.

Willem Janssen  40:22  

The sky’s the limit. Was that a hint Marta? Yeah, we need some sponsors. No, we don’t. But I think there’s a couple of things that the reason why we wanted to talk a bit about this is, I think also because, you know, in general, I think we’re seeing a trend towards more teamwork and academia, so that the question is, how does that relate to individual awards. Perhaps you would need to move more to team effort type of awards. On the other hand, awards do really allow us to showcase exceptional work, and I find that we’re very hesitant, particularly in the Netherlands to have these types of things like awards, because it’s seen as almost a dirty thing to talk about, right? In a good saying, so it goes in the Netherlands where you say something like; Act normal, that’s crazy enough, right? That’s kind of, I think, what…

Marta Andhov  41:15  

Tall poppy seed syndrome or Jantelove Denmark, right?

Willem Janssen  41:18  

Yeah, Exactly. Don’t stick your head out above the haystack, right? Because your head will be chopped off. And I think, but then again, there are some good examples. So, and I find also a lot of the good awards that actually really have a rigorous selection process and showcase some exceptional work, I think, suffer from a lack of awareness, right? Is that, or at least, that people don’t actually know they exist, right? So, I think that first of all, starts with students, right? I find that my students have no idea that there are actually some procurement awards that they could participate in for, say, their thesis. So I think that’s a logical starting point.

Marta Andhov  41:56  

Yeah. And here we have a couple usually, it seems from our prep for this episode, as we discussed that a lot of national procurement lawyers associations or other procurement associations will have some sort of recognition and opportunity to submit if that’s your master thesis or your PhD thesis connected with the procurement to potentially compete for the award. There are two that I’m aware of. One is the Danish Procurement Association, which established a thesis award in the name of the late Steen Treumer for the master thesis. So that is one, and then another one is also the Steen Treumer’s Thesis competition that is led by Leon Chair of Public Contracts currently Professor François Lichère. So those are some of those. And I think you mentioned Willem, also a couple more, right?

Willem Janssen  42:59  

Yeah, so that, I mean, there’s also one, which I think very much relates to the Danish equivalent, so the Nederlandse Vereniging voor Aanbestedingsrecht so the Dutch Association For Public Procurement Law, I feel like I gotta flow in some Dutch every now and then, right? Why not? If everyone talks about Bestek, which is cutlery and Dutch, right? Why not? I think that kind of makes sense too. So the Dutch Association For Public Procurement Law, we’re awarding one in December, which is always quite exciting. So I think my call to action would always be as a student, if you’re writing about procurement topics, make sure that you know these avenues right, because it doesn’t hurt, right? You’ve already done the work. It can help you on your resume, and perhaps help your future career a little bit to stand out when it comes to application. So I think those types of procurement focus, I think are relevant. And also when it comes to PhD students, the German von Garber is a nice award that they come up with, I think every two years, if  I’m correct. So that’s more on the student, PhD candidate type of front, and I’m sure there’s more. So if people think about other examples, feel free to share them, because I think it would be nice to have some type of overview.

Marta Andhov  44:10  

I think that there are maybe two reasons why we are highlighting those amongst others that just come to my mind. I think one is, you know, there’s a lesser competition, right? In a certain way, if you go for something that is procurement specific, versus if you go, you know, there will be some sort of young researcher or doctor or thesis or master thesis. So that’s sort of one way. Another way is it gives you exposure to a particular already, network and environment, which is quite nice. Another thing is also some of them have some monetary prices, which, you know, it’s kind of a nice way, if you on top of writing a great thesis, you can get some money go for a nice dinner, celebrate, or, I don’t know, maybe go somewhere for a long weekend, or something like that. It’s always nice, right? And it’s just this pat on the shoulder that I think that systematically, the more we progress in our careers, there is less of those recognition really tools. And that brings me back to then, some of those awards or recognitions or bonuses or whatever we want to call them, that are connected with more professional life beyond you being a student and the New Zealand Procurement Award that I mentioned over the Welsh ones and couple others, I think that what I quite like here is that it is giving that recognition we often talk about, you know, public sectors lacking somehow in funds and different possibilities, which ultimately leads to the fact that they struggle to retain the talent. And I think that’s one of the ways you know if you have, and I was really impressed by, you know, this dinner Gala and as you actually… The reason why I was impressed, was just so it doesn’t sound that everyone was beautifully dressed, but what I kind of liked about it was the communal sense. It’s people, because, you know, you have certain people that are taking on board as evaluators, and they look on these great practices of how people developed, if those are projects and new methodologies for assessment, new innovative procurement project in itself, right the suppliers, but also you have, like, young, upcoming professional or, you know, like celebration of mid-career and later on, and some of them are teams, also to your point earlier on, the teams recognition. So I think that that’s another, you know, nice way of recognizing the hard work of people and giving it that sort of spotlight. And then, of course, we have journals, different journals, and different organizations that also recognize that there are some competitions with Common Market Law Review and a couple other journals that you can submit your papers for a competition, and also the European Publication Office, that, some time ago, for example, had the ambassador competition that was similar, that you could, as a practitioner, but also as an academic, submit your publications for awarding couple categories, and I imagine that might be repeated again, gives you a nice exposure. So I think that that, yeah, those are some of the examples. If there are others, let’s share maybe. 

Willem Janssen  47:41  

Yeah. I think I feel like if people keep listening to this podcast, they might get actually a bit tired, because every last couple of podcasts, we’ve put them to work. But I suppose if we’re putting in the work, they also need to everyone else needs to chip in as well, a bit. No. So I think it’s more about getting an overview right for potential opportunities because sometimes we’re not aware of them. And I think it is nice to pay tribute to those that actually have done excellent work, of course, in many ways, awards are one of them. Of course, we can do that in many other ways, but I think that really nicely sums up our dessert. But of course, the final words are for you, Marta.

Marta Andhov  48:19  

No, definitely. I think that it does. I think the purpose always with this is building community, right? So I hope that no one feels like we’re asking them to get to work, but rather that we try to highlight…

Willem Janssen  48:31  

Even though we are asking them to get to work.

Marta Andhov  48:34  

Everyone’s great work uplifts everyone within the community. That’s always important, right? But to sum up, we discussed today on our main, circularity and procurement, what thematical questions arise? What legal questions arise? We had a Willem’s call to action. Please share your reactions to the podcast. Were there any experiences that you might have, that you would like to share? And on our dessert, we shared some thoughts on procurement awards. We differentiated between the ones that are available for students, young academics, academics, but also practitioners and recognitions of them as outstanding individuals, but also in teams, how that builds community, how that can be used as an additional lever to giving recognition to the profession that continuously struggles, I guess, to be recognized as very important, strategic and doing a great job. And I think that pretty much sums it up. Thanks so much everyone for joining us. Thanks, Willem for your insightful comments on the topics discussed today. Ladies and gentlemen, this was Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast.

Bestek Voice  49:57  

This was Bestek, the Public Procurement Podcast. Do you want to contribute to today’s discussion? Then share your thoughts on LinkedIn or Twitter. Do you have an idea for a future episode? Write to us at www.bestekpodcast.com.

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