Willem Janssen  0:00 

Welcome to Bestek, the public procurement podcast. Today, Marta and I are discussing contract performance conditions and rituals for productivity.

About Bestek 0:13

Welcome to Bestek, the public procurement podcast. In this podcast Dr. Willem Janssen and Dr. Marta Andhov discuss public procurement law issues, their love of food, and academic life. In each episode, Willem, Marta and their guests search for answers to intriguing public procurement questions. This is Bestek. Let’s dish up public procurement law.

Willem Janssen  0:37 

So, there we are, again, like probably like we promised actually, in the last episode already, we made a little bit of a cliffhanger there, and we said, we’re going to get get back to contract performance conditions, which was your idea I think?

Marta Andhov  0:49 

It was like two episodes ago actually.

Willem Janssen  0:54 

I’m gonna say this is your fault that we’re here today. Just like you were kind of hesitant, I think in the previous episode to discuss the transfer competencies. This is more your cup of tea today, but I’m happy to join you. What we’ll be looking at is:  for main course, we’ll be discussing the blurred lines between contract performance conditions, and technical specifications and award criteria. So, perhaps we’ll be looking at what distinguishes them and what are issues that arise when we look at those, those topics. And I think we’re also going to continue a bit of the discussion that we had last time about procrastination, and we’re doing it perhaps in a bit more of a positive light, we’re looking at rituals for productivity, right. So, some aspects might return, but I look forward to also hearing about how you structure your day to be very productive, and perhaps you’re also interested in hearing about my day, but we’ll get back to that. It’s nice to chat again, and I look forward to discussing this topic today. So, just to kick off straightaway with like the legal specie stuff. Technical specifications, award criteria and contract performance conditions are obviously regulated by the Directive, we’re in Directive 2014/24 EU[1], and the starting point is Article 70, which displays whatever the directive says about these conditions for the performance of contracts. In true fashion, and also requested by you beforehand, I will quote the article and try to sound like a newsreader again. So what does this article say? It refers to contracting authorities may lay down special conditions relating to the performance of a contract, provided that they are linked to the subject matter of the contract within the meaning of Article 67(3), and indicated in the call for competition or in the procurement documents. Those conditions may include economic, innovation related, environmental, social, or employment related considerations. That’s all what the directive says about these contractual conditions. Not a lot, but it does cause some issues in terms of interpretation, which we’ll be looking at today. To structure our thoughts, perhaps we’ll look at it this way. First, we’ll look at contract performance and technical specifications, then we’ll tackle award criteria, and then we’ll look towards the future, and also perhaps a bit about enforcement. Do you want to kick off with the first one?

Marta Andhov  3:45 

Sure. So, I think is a couple of words of introduction. When this becomes really interesting, the wording of the directive refers to contract performance conditions. Those conditions also are very often referred to as a contract performance clauses they take form of a contractual clause. So, besides sustainability, my second area of preference in context of public procurement is intersection between contract law and public procurement. So, this is actually really interesting conversation because it brings both of those loves of mine into one,

Willem Janssen  4:23 

I thought Bestek was your first love, but anyway….

Marta Andhov  4:26 

That is the third one.

Willem Janssen  4:29 

It’s kind of your in house in public-public cooperation, right? Is that fair to say? So, we meet in sustainability, but we have our, you know, preferred cake on the side.

Marta Andhov  4:41 

For sure. For sure. I do like to look at specific private law contractual aspects. So, in this regards, I think the contract performance conditions are quite interesting, right? What is the main difference between the previous loss and the new directive is the contract performance clauses or conditions, they used to not have a reference to requirement of a link to the subject matter, which at least in theory opened up the door of putting several of the things, particularly in sustainability area up there. Now, that gates, so to speak has been closed earlier, or at least tightened, the introduction of the requirement of link to the subject matter has been introduced. In this relation, and then it brings a very interesting question. Namely that is: – Well, what they are? – , those contract performance conditions and: – How much independence they truly have, versus how much they need to be actually interrelated with other aspects of procurement process.- As you mentioned, we will be looking at technical specification award criteria and some aspects of contract modification today.

Willem Janssen  6:01 

What’s interesting, sorry to interrupt, I mean, this is really where public procurement law actually does it. This is not about competition anymore, right. This is clearly about the contract, which generally is governed by national law. That’s why it’s also interesting to see this this subject matter of the contract entering here. Yeah, this is and this is where my Dutch came through. I said, Yeah, yes. I’ve always looked at this as an interesting article in the Directive, which is predominantly focused on this competitive process, right, and here, we’re really entering the domain of the cooperation following that competitive process. So, that’s why I’ve always looked at this with a certain amount of interest.

Marta Andhov  6:43 

I think that up here also, one of our good colleagues and devoted listener, Albert, would probably disagree with you a little bit, because  you could definitely look at it here also through lens of competition, particularly depending on kind of what you put in those contract performance conditions and later on also after the contract is awarded, how much you change and what you do in context of contract performance conditions, that can have ultimately also impact right in that regards, for sure. So, contract performance conditions, what are they? Majority of the examples that are mentioned, if that is in Article 70, or in recitals ultimately bring us to conditions of social or environmental nature. They can be elements such as, in context of social and environmental methods of production, and that brings us to the Dutch coffee case that we will look into in a second. They can also be aspects also such as employment of persons with disability, fair trade conditions, that can be elements such as delivery, packaging, disposal of products, work or services, waste, minimization, resource efficiency, right? So quite broad, but the catalogue ultimately, what is quite interesting here is that the catalog the examples that we can see is very much focused on sustainability I would say. Social and environment elements.

Willem Janssen  8:23 

Just to add to that. In the Netherlands, we see a strong focus, or almost a standard contract clause to use 5% of the sum of the contract to employ long term unemployed, you know, social return on investment or which morphed into social return clauses. That’s really the Dutch standard approach, that 5% is nearly standard. What’s difficult, though, is that that’s rarely evaluated. So, with a question that’s often raised, particularly by by our good friends, those practising lawyers, as they say: – Yeah, when when we actually look at this is this something that we should also fulfil this 5% or  engaging with long term unemployed? –  So, that’s where it gets difficult. What I think is very much necessary in in all tenders is to continuously re evaluate what you’re asking and particularly on these contract performance conditions, there’s a lot of standardisation going on which is very ineffective. So, people, public purchasers often just look at the list and they say: – Oh, we’ll use this again for this contract! -, even though that might not be relevant at all.

Marta Andhov  9:44 

You know, standardisation in certain areas. We seek standardisation, right. LCC methodologies, right lifecycle costing methodologies, we need standardisation, for sure labels, couple other aspects, but I think that it All the sustainability issues that we ever actually discussed within that podcast or over dinner with someone is always we always ultimately come back to the same thing, we need to escape green and social washing and do those things with with really little bit of thought, right? Ultimately contract performance conditions, even if they are not part of the competitive process, so they are not part of an award criteria such towards which you give points, they for sure have some sort of cost, right?  There is a certain cost did for sure is one way or another incured within the tenders. And then my point of all of that is: – You need to evaluate! – I mean, evaluate later on, when the court contracts come to termination, and you do all that you need to look into: – Did that make sense? – , and if it did great, fantastic, then you just reassure someone like myself, and probably yours, that doing sustainable procurement is a great thing. If you don’t do that, then you give really, I think, food for thought and ammunition to critics of this approach, because we don’t know if that actually has the social benefits or not? My point here that I wanted to just make very briefly is that even though the catalogue of examples usually refers to those social and environmental elements, they can also be innovation related, and that can relate to some other things. Of course, the challenge is that we don’t really see much examples on this. One of the examples that actually I came across while looking through commentary to the English regulation that has been panned by two of our colleagues, Petra and Albert, in a commentary to the regulations 70, the UK one. They actually give as an example of innovation related performance condition, a requirement to publish in open source, the intellectual property developed during contract execution. So, that could be an innovation related one, but predominantly social and environmental one. The point that arose really as a certain level of challenge where we started to struggle a little bit, it’s actually case that comes from from your country Willem. That is the Dutch coffee[2] case, which for the first time introduced this question whether something is a contract performance condition, or if something is technical specification? I think the border between those two, and that’s where I would want to start with our first issue. So, if you could share with us in couple words, little bit what the Dutch coffee or Max Havelaar case or Commission v. Netherlands case, depending whichever reference you prefer. What that case was about?

Willem Janssen  12:59 

Yeah, so basically, it touched upon the question that I think we see a lot on a broader scope is that we actually know what we want. So, we’re just going to ask for it. Right? So, we want a certain type of cartridge for a printer, we want sustainable coffee that fits  into our policies, and the question is then: – Can we can we ask for it?- , right? I think the question that you’re asking in this slide is that there is a certain blurring of lines here between technical specifications and contract performance, because both are trying to at least scope down what we actually want. Right?  That makes it difficult for practice.

Marta Andhov  13:53 

For sure, and I think that here, it’s also a lot about debate of interpretation of particular phrases or understandings such as manufacturing process. This is then connected little bit about where something is ancillary to what we buy versus when something really is a core of that. What we learn from the Dutvh coffee was that fair trade saw the provisions, conditions under which the supplier acquires products from the manufacturer requiring for that to be on the basis of fair trade. That is something of a matter of a contract performance condition, but it’s not suitable to be a part of technical specification and that ties also to interpretation of link to the subject matter saying that manufacturing procedures or processes can be part of link to the subject matter even If they don’t have effect in a physical sense, but not fair trade, and up here from some of the practice, fair a bit of criticism arous around this, because the question and I think also, when we discuss environmental issues in our other episodes with Green Deal or the article 18(2) when we discuss very much is also: – To what extent we moving from the notion of public procurement law regulating how we are to buy to actually starting to dictate what it is that you are buying? – , because the argument here is, someone says, I really want ethically trade coffee. I don’t want coffee, I want ethically trade coffee. The question is about, of course, application of subsidiarity principle, the question is about discretion of contracting authorities to choose what they want to buy versus of course, on other hand side protection of the general principles, right? Ensuring that this is not used in a way that is actually giving a preferential treatment or anyhow, distorting competition, or untransparent, etc, etc. Of course,  the Dutch coffee is specifically taught about this discriminatory form of application of the labels, right?That’s where really the true issue at hand laws, but up here, I think this is the first element that starts to really show whether it is a condition? Whether it is an element that you truly want there, because it’s a part of your technical specification, or it is not? That’s where the fair-trade condition really came into place, because why we have the method of production being understand as perfectly suitable to be regulated by technical specification, the fair trade condition not really, anymore. That has been connected, of course, also with how you distinguish between those provisions, not only in the sense of the scoping, so what elements can be a part of it, but it’s also about the character, because assessment and character of technical specification is always there, right? You need to have technical specification, and you need to be complacent, you need to you need to be able to fulfil them, right? You cannot change that in any way,but when we look at the contract performance condition where they have a facultative character, right? You can use them or you don’t have to. You can have a procurement without having special contract performance conditions. Right?

Willem Janssen  17:56 

Rarely happens, I find in practice, but yeah, you’re right. In theory, you could.

Marta Andhov  18:00 

Yeah. So then, and then the question is, when you introduce them, can you change them? Can you change them or not, right? That brings us to the second question or second issue. So a couple of words….we mentioned couple words about Dutch coffee, and the technical specification relationship to contract performance condition, and then the second element is about the relationship to award criteria. If we, if we look into again, the provisions, the contract performance conditions, should not really be evaluated, right?  They are not part of the competitive process? They stay outside. They are rather a form of minimum requirement, right? So, it’s, again as sort of 01 or passive fail. You have to, this is a minimal condition to whoever wins the contract,

Willem Janssen  18:54 

Yeah, there’s no benefit to excelling on these aspects, right? Just to continue the the the aspect, what I just mentioned, a 5% social return, including long term unemployed. Of course, it would be good and perhaps noble and great if you would do 10%, but there’s no benefit to it, there’s no points to be won, right?

Marta Andhov  19:15 

Unless you combine it with award criteria. So, what you could to do is of course say: -The 5% being the minimum requirement that is regulated and then confirmed in the contract performance clause that goes to the contract, as you mentioned, but then you combine it with our award criteria, saying  that the 5% is the minimum, but then when you go above for every percent or 2%, you get some additional point in the competitive process, right. – In that way you award as part of obviously of the broader award criteria. You would consider that element so that being somehow combined with award criteria. That is also connected with one more element that I was really interested to hear your opinion on. Where I see it potential, and I see potential for good and at the same time see, of course a potential of a certain level of risk is specifically if we’re looking at some of those sustainable issues, you may be dealing with a market that is not ready, right? There is not enough competition on the market in regards to some specific elements: logistic, a particular sector, clean production or some type of manufacturing with a very high level of….

Willem Janssen  20:39 

CO2 emissions are high. They’re long standing industries, right? They, started in the or at least romantically,  in the 1850s, and they’ve still been doing, ever since.

Marta Andhov  20:54 

So, let’s say that you want to transition or you want to support again, if that is governmental or organisational policies of lets say a reduction of CO2. But you you are aware that if you would include it in award criteria, technical specification, etc, you might get one or maybe two bids, you realise that’s from competition perspective, really problematic. So, rather than bringing that this way, I would see a contracting authority taking quite proactive role in creating markets, right? So, when you could try to bring this into contract performance condition, saying that: – Whoever wins the contract, within five years, need to transition to clean manufacturing, that is in line with the requirements of a particular label, let’s say or particular standard. – This, of course, would to be described to certain detail within the contract, right?

Willem Janssen  21:56 

…and certain milestones would need to be included.

Marta Andhov  21:59 

Absolutely. And when I see, you know, the positive of that is that then each time that such a procurement would be repeated in years to come, hopefully, systematically, you could grow the pool of suppliers, who would be able to meet at some point this as a requirement, right? So, that’s where I see this as a quite interesting possibility. At the same time, of course, there is a risk because this is something that you look for future, it’s not something that is in place, and what if you cannot then deliver some aspect of it?  That then directly connects us with the third issue, which is contract performance conditions and rules on modification. Right? So, how then, let’s say in this example, that we created, together here, let’s say that it’s a year five, five and a half, and the supplier did not meet that standard? What then? Right? Is that leading us to the need to terminate the contract? How that looks in context of Article 72 proportionality wise, right? Is that an issue of such an extent that again, triggers the issues of material change under Article 72 or not, and that’s then connected also one one element of that could be this conditions looking for future but another going back, you know, to Dutch coffee, right? At sample you realise the coffee that you paying? And you getting, it’s not sustainable? You probably won’t really taste it right?

Willem Janssen  23:47 

Well, I have to say, I took two barista courses, the whole barista courses in the summer last year. So, from now on, I do actually taste the difference. So, we’re not getting the coffee we want.

Marta Andhov  24:00 

For all us mortals, not the coffee fanatics….

Willem Janssen  24:04 

…..not worthy of coffee. Is that what you’re saying?

Marta Andhov  24:06 

The sustainable coffee, right? Nevermind, at some point, you realise that the premium probably did you pay for the fact that you receive a sustainable coffee is not there anymore. So, this this element to what that….and of course, it then depends whether that element has been described within I would say, technical specification, or whether it is solely maybe contract performance condition? What effect that ultimately has on on the rules of modification, because I think if it was described within technical specification, I think that that goes to the core of a contract. So, we have in other words, much bigger issue. having in mind, let’s see, if you have contract performance condition that was not part of the competition maybe there is some more scope, but then on other hand, then you’ll look at precedents that maybe if that contract performance conditions would not be there in the first place, you have a different bidders that actually would bid for it, which is again,….

Willem Janssen  25:11 

….that would be a clear modification, right?

Marta Andhov  25:13 

Absolutely.

Willem Janssen  25:13 

So I mean, I think what’s what’s interesting is that this also touches on a broader issue. Is everything that’s being promised in a tender in whatever phase or it was whether it’s required in a technical specification, if it’s in a contract clause, or if it’s actually something that you said, Well, I’m excelling on this. I’ll give you more than what you’re asking for the my competitors in award criteria. I think that’s a general issue, right? Is the enforcement of whatever you’ve promised is that actually materialising because, in a way, it’s often also not in the interest of a contracting authority to cancel the contract after five years of decent performance that maybe was up to scratch but didn’t actually achieve the sustainability standards that were promised, or didn’t actually meet that 5% criterion? So in a way, it’s it’s one, and a recent article in public procurement law review also refers to that: is transparency of modifications, right? What is what do we do with that that’s relatively untouched, but in the end, that is what would sparked litigation from competitors. And particularly, if we look at, you know, including broad contract performance conditions in tenders, that’s something that we would need to look at, right? Perhaps we could fix it by making them very explicit also, on what would happen? Like when you mentioned: – Like, okay, could lead to a modification of contract, but perhaps, if you don’t meet those contractual conditions, perhaps you would introduce a fine system? – , right? That’s when you would need to pay up, right? that would make it very clear, expectable? Then would cause I think, less problems in terms of other concepts within the law?

Marta Andhov  27:05 

I think that that’s because it’s again, you know, contract performance condition. I think that’s possible. Those are options that we discussed are possible. But I think that requires, again, in more detail, and careful drafting of, let’s say, review clauses, right? What happens also in case if you’re not able to meet some of those elements? Because if it’s transparents, I think it’s clear, and what’s the wording of review clause in 72? Clear, and…. (mumbling)…. that’s where my English fail. It’s some aspect of, in other words, in plain language, it needs to be very clear and transparent review clause. Then I think that that can be somehow defended, but ultimately, that would be very important to consider, and that just to wrap up our conversation on our main. Two more just comments to that, in general, would you put in the contract performance conditions are one of two things if we want to group them or type them, or they are what we discussed in context of Article 18(2) in our our previous episodes, they may reconfirm an existing legal obligation that just provides an additional layer of contractual enforcement, let’s say stating that, that contract needs to be performed in accordance with social act, labour act x, y, and z or they are also contractual form of enforcing a certain higher standard than otherwise contractor would not be obliged to do so, and that couldn’t be the element, let’s say of this 5%, Willem that you mentioned, but I’m not sure if in the Netherlands, there is something is just a standard clause, or that some sort of mandatory obligation

Willem Janssen  29:15 

No, it is a standard clause.

Marta Andhov  29:16 

Yes! So yeah, that can be a good example, right? Otherwise, if you wouldn’t have it in a contract, you don’t have really any any enforcement mechanism, right? And contract law provide us with with with some of those things, for sure. Just there needs to be a follow up connection with some sort of penalties or fines for not fulfilling them. So that it’s in a context of wrapping up the subject matter

Willem Janssen  29:41 

At conferences I love it when people say or when I say: – Thank you very much for your contribution. Please allow me to make two small remarks! -, and then they talk for five hours. But clearly, I wouldn’t be podcasting with you if you would do those things you didn’t so you confirm my initial hunch. I think it’s time to move on to what you very poetically referred to as rituals for productivity. Just to recap on what we did two episodes ago. We looked at procrastination. Like I said in the introduction, this is perhaps more of a positive look on to this subject, but I think that there’s more to be said about it clearly. So let me just bounce back this beautiful wording of yours. What are your rituals for productivity Marta?

Marta Andhov  30:38 

So again, it might be, you know, a little bit connected with New Year’s or it might be connected with COVID, in a context that I really feel like last year sort of happened, you know?

Willem Janssen  30:48 

Do you still feel like we’re in the like, New Year phase, even though we’re already progressing to the year?

Marta Andhov  30:54 

I think that I still kind of have that viewpoint probably half year in because I think it’s a matter of, you know, trying to kind of gain a feeling of control, because you cannot control it, but rather to sort of really going towards this new reality in 2021, rather than I think that I was very reactive in 2020, because I was constantly waiting for this to be over. I think that you know, this year, because we already know that most presumably, we really cannot count that this will happen that this will be over anytime soon. So how I can structure my days how I can approach my work life in a more mindful way to ensure that under this new circumstances, I actually can be productive? Because I was extremely unproductive, also, probably, you know, as doing this podcast was something that really helped me out to actually get the juices flowing to actually think about procurement research, discussing some of those things. But in that context, I got really into looking into some of really, first, I looked into some of the really successful people, rituals and practices, you know, from Steve Jobs to Obama and like, really, you know, leading people, but then I got really interesting to learning a little bit more about people that are have a huge amount of respect within our field. By field, I mean, academia, some of the people that I see are extremely productive, whether I was very curious whether that is connected, let’s say, with the fact that they are, they don’t have little children, for example, or families, and that’s the reason that they have more time, or whether that is connected with just personality? Like where it lies, where, you know,  what are the roots of productivity? I noticed that actually, the more busy people are, those are usually also the people who are extremely productive, it seems that time management is is really crucial, but this very broad intro, then I would try to very brief be about actually, my rituals, I found that, for me, to have a good working day, I need to wake up early. There’s no doubt about it, even if I really, truly, ultimately, you know, start work, let’s say at nine, or sometimes even at 10, I need to have a moment for myself, I feel that if I wake up and I kind of within half an hour need to be on calls, zoom meetings, and let’s say some of them are stressful or not particularly pleasant, you know, part of work life right? Then sort of all my day is a bit off balance. So, I think that really waking up early and having a moment if that is you know, to sit and have a tea or coffee and write my to do list or….

Willem Janssen  33:45 

I thought actually for a moment you were going to say: – I have a glass of wine. – mbut that happens at the end of the day.

Marta Andhov  33:53 

Something that I actually tried to do it, that’s a new thing. And for now with that, you know, it’s a bit too early to say but as a part of my ritual I started and that’s connected with achieving, like those bigger goals that we discussed last time, about procrastination. So, I’m trying actually the evening before I’m trying to write my to do list for the next day, and then the day on the morning of that day I’m trying to get rid of as you know, sort of get rid of the things that I really don’t have to do that day. You know, to really boil it down to the true things that I need to achieve in the long run. Rather than have a whole day of writing emails and feeling like I’m super important busy, but I didn’t do anything. Anything valuable actually. So yeah, I think early mornings and the second thing that we also already figured out that we in agreement with and I’m not sure under normal conditions that we will that will continue but I hope so that I really break out my day currently, like a 12:00 – 12:30 I go out for an hour, I go out and I need to walk and I need to get some air and sometimes I take my notepad with me and I’m thinking about this darn book about section, chapters, maybe add this, and that sometimes I have some smart thoughts during those walks, and some other time, I’m just listened to, you know, music.

Willem Janssen  35:13 

The Bestek, the public procurement podcasts.

Marta Andhov  35:16 

I’m analysing all our mistakes along the way. S,o I think Yeah, for me, crucial mornings and breaking out the day. I think those definitely contribute. What about yourself? Did you create some rituals? Well, you are also new dad, so I’m guessing that your world also kind of changed in that context, right?

Willem Janssen  35:35 

Well, yeah, clearly. I mean there’s this like, waking up relaxed in the morning, when you said that sounded very appealing with a cup of tea. So, I mean, I don’t know how I would create that in the morning, even though it’s been an absolute pleasure to have in addition to our family since May last year. So, I would say that there’s clearly when you are with kids, that it takes up a great amount of your time in a very positive way. What I find is a positive aspect, because you can also you can very much look at: – Oh you are tired all the time. – , and all this type of stuff. What’s positive, or at least what I found is that it requires you to be super focused. Kids do not give in to whatever you want. So, if you have that half an hour, you will use that half an hour, because otherwise, it’s never going to get done, and that’s what I thought was an interesting, or at least that’s what happened to me. So, I’ve gotten more…. last time, we talked about being procrastinating, that’s kind of out the window right now, mostly because I think, look, when I pick her up from daycare, that’s when she needs my attention, and that’s what I also want to give her that attention. So, that’s interesting.

Marta Andhov  36:47 

You don’t have time really, right? You are really sort of cramped for time, but, you know, this is something…. I spoke to one of my really good colleagues and mentor. She’s a lady that has four kids, and produces obnoxious amount of really outstanding research.  I asked her, you know, at some point about this rituals, and it’s very much in line with what you’re saying that actually, the more busy you get, the more you know, prioritise your family time or your private time for really good quality time. Then you really, you don’t sort of sit and flip through as you say, you know, Megan and Harry updates for half an hour. I need to tease you a bit. It really the really kind of forces you to be efficient and focused.

Willem Janssen  37:43 

Then also, I think, find your space. So, I was joking a bit when you said about that moment, or in the morning, I think it’s also about finding the time where you’re most productive, right? So, for me, that’s evenings. It’s totally night work. I feel like there’s nothing distracting me, there’s maybe also no alternative to do right at 11 o’clock at night, right? That definitely doesn’t mean that I only work in the evening, or that I work every evening. No, clearly not. I find that after lunch, that’s when my time is for writing. So, whether that turns into an evening or not, doesn’t matter, but in the morning, I do all my calls, and I do my chats with students, and I really tried to get everything squeezed into that. Now clearly, that never works out that way. That’s at least the starting point, right? I tried to get those calls in, particularly now when we’re working so much from home, is to not go from call to call every day, squeezing off toilet breaks, and all this type of stuff, like really focused on in the morning and have the afternoons for research. It’s really like what we said, and I think that’s why I’m only confirming is to have these blocks in my day that you know, are designated for research or designated for lunch.

Marta Andhov  38:59 

It’s a very bizarre time. No, but I agree with you, and I need to say that actually, you know, these days, my sort of rituals, and my schedule looks very similar to yours. I’m just always been, you know, my partner really believes in the same thing of what you say that the best work is actually done evenings and nights actually. I kind of from, you know, strictly social perspective, I always tried to really fight it because I actually also, you know…..there is something about the fact that you don’t get emails, you didn’t get phone calls right at the evenings you really have this peace and quiet environment. But you know, I just always kind of was trying to aim for more balanced life in that regard. So, but ultimately, that’s very true that I think that evenings, you kind of being left alone,  so a lot of the work is done, but you know, just to wrap up those items. I think the rituals are also about understanding at different periods, you know, understanding that there are periods in which you are more systematic and you kind of don’t need to work that much, but then also understanding…. because I think that at some point, people also feel quite bad that they are workaholics or it’s too much, or et cetera…..But you know, there are also peers, there’s time to have fun, but there’s also time that for two weeks, you need to work like crazy, and I think that this is a message that particularly I hope that by any chance, if any of our students have been listening so far, that that resonates with them, because I think that everyone is so stressed these days, and working a lot is almost frowned upon to certain extent. But I think, periods in which you know, you want to excel, you want to achieve something great, you need to also probably invest a bit more, but try to make sure that you have some parts of rituals of your days that set you up in a positive way for…..

Willem Janssen 40:55

…. relaxation. Yeah, I’ve always looked at it like I think I’m on the same page as you are. Like I don’t mind working hard, but I don’t want to work hard all the time. So yeah, evenings are from here weekends as well but if it’s necessary I’m happy to do it and I think there’s two more things that I’d like to add in, and I think we can round it up. Like you said, what I sometimes struggle with is what is productive very often and I see this with my colleagues as well you’re only productive if you’re doing research whereas I think a broader view will actually make us happier. As academics productivity is also helping out that student or setting up a course or reevaluating something or trying to get a podcast going you know that’s also productivity rather than always focusing solely on research. I think to close it off perhaps is how productive can we actually be in this crisis? I think you for a lot of people, a lot of academics this has just been a time of juggling homeschooling with deadlines at work and really just getting through it and also being nervous about not meeting their publication quota yeah and I think that’s why I’m so proud of also working at Utrecht University at this time. They’ve just totally let go of any type of expectations they’ve just said look your health and your mental health is most important to us so just get through it: – Try to make sure that you at least get your teaching done and we won’t or at least will take this into account in the future whether come in terms of promotions or in terms of evaluations. –  Like this is a time where we need to stick together instead of like focusing solely on you know having 15 publications a year which is so exorbitant amount which you would never achieve but you get the gist of what I’m saying?

Marta Andhov  42:52

Yeah, for sure! No, but I think that’s also applaudable, you know, for institution to provide that type of support. Undoubtfully. The one last thing and I promise to be very brief is that there’s someone who made a comment that we really calculate amount of teaching hours and admin hours. How much time you spend on it and we always complain that we have too much, but we don’t put this quota in research. You never hear from anyone that they have too much time for research and I think that’s maybe also an interesting just food for thought. That maybe actually we also should somehow put this in a kind of you know realistic structure that well it needs to be…. if let’s say I’ve got 30% and 30% here. Well, it needs to be that it needs to be 40% or you know it’s probably just something that we would want, but also just sort of….. because with our line of work you could work endlessly it would never be done.

Willem Janssen  43:56

That sounds like a bit of a depressive thought actually when you say it like that, but I think it’s not that’s how I’m interpreting it

Marta Andhov  44:02

It’s interesting for sure. I always sort of dig deeper and find different things.

Willem Janssen  44:06

I think you’ve given me an idea, and this is going to be a massive cliffhanger which people will look forward to greatly or leased by home. We need to discuss I think the whole debate of recognition and how we evaluate academics? There’s a big debate going on in the Netherlands about can you become a full professor just based on teaching or should you be able to become to grow in whatever way not just through the ranks but absent salary or through recognition of other aspects not just through massive grants but also through making a podcast? I think that’s a nice topic to touch up on, let’s go with that. This was Bestek, the public procurement podcast.

About Bestek 44:51

This was Bestek, the public procurement podcast. Do you want to contribute to today’s discussion? Then share your thoughts on LinkedIn or Twitter. Do you have an idea for a future episode? Write to us at www.bestekpodcast.com

You might also be interested in Marta’s upcoming publication on this subject:

1. Andhov, “Commentary to article 70” in R. Caranta, A. Sanchez-Graells (eds.) Commentary of the Public Procurement Directive (2014/24/EU) (Edward Elgar 2021) – forthcoming.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32014L0024

[2] Case C‑368/10 European Commission v Kingdom of the Netherlands (https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?num=C-368/10)

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